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Why am I still so slow?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by vittau, Jul 22, 2018.

  1. vittau

    vittau Rookie

    Hi everyone! :)

    So, I've been playing AC for a while, currently with 287h logged on Steam. I drive with a Logitech G29 + Shifter combo, and while I know it's an entry-level rig, I'm sure it's more than enough for proper racing.
    By now I know all about racing lines, apexes, under/oversteer, etc...

    One of my favorite tracks is of course the Norschleife, and I love practicing hotlaps on it (here's a video with the RSS Saleen as example). Just moments ago I took the Porsche 918 for a spin, and after a couple laps, all I could manage was a 7:16. I drove the racing line, I was smooth with the brakes and throttle, didn't fight the rear snapping out... But it was 19s slower than the Porsche record, which I've seen people reproduce in AC.

    I'm at a point where I can't see where to improve further, and practice feels like it's stagnated. Can you spot any major problems in my example video? (I don't have one of the Porsche 918, but hopefully this one can give you an idea). Or is it just full of minor mistakes which accumulate into many seconds? If so, how do you suggest I improve?

    Any help is appreciated.

    Cheers! :)

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  3. esox71

    esox71 Alien

    Setup maybe? tyres?
    Have ten more laps. :)
  4. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    The slow in, fast-out come from the book "The Physics of Racing" by Brian Beckman" part 17, Advanced Analysis of the Racing Line (http://phors.locost7.info/phors17.htm). Slow in, fast out is related to the racing line, not the actual driving input which is commonly used for malicious intend with this reference. Separating deceleration force before the apex & acceleration force is the effective technique according to the book.

    You can also read this too about the fallacy of getting on the gas early: http://www.beyondseattime.com/the-fallacy-of-getting-on-the-gas-early/

    There's some situation where you are forced to hold the brake at 100% & turn the steering at the same time until halfway of the entry phase. Yes, yes the car doesn't fully understeer. :D
  5. vittau

    vittau Rookie

    In the case of the 918, there's really not a lot to setup. At least nothing that would make such a huge difference, I think.

    I've always been somewhat suspicious about the whole "get on the gas early" advice, because it completely ignores the geometry of the turn. That was a very good read, thanks.

    Nevertheless, the Nordschleife is a track where most turns blend into another, and hence the racing line is full of compromises. I do seem to be taking a similar line to most videos I see on the web. Even the braking points and pedal inputs (when available) all seem very familiar to me (i.e the videos look like something I would be doing).

    What do you guys do when you feel like you're not evolving?
  6. martcerv

    martcerv Alien

    Track like Nords the big gains and so losses are on exits, many sections are full throttle for a very long time so the last corner before this can be worth 1 or more seconds before the next brake zone. If your chasing big amounts of time then that's where you will find it most likely assuming you don't have a hardware issue with a spiking pedal or throttle not hitting 100% when on the floor. If your trying to find the last second or so these are found on entry mostly and as the gains are pretty small per corner focusing on this is pointless until you learn how to maximize all exits first. There are also other key sections where tiny lifts or tiny brake inputs to keep the car stable will be faster then trying to be flat through them along with being precise with line. You need to use all the road but even 1cm more can end in disaster so you need to be precise and hit your intended line consistently.

    Use a live delta to see when you gain or lose time but at Nords my initial laps may be about 10 seconds off what I will get down to after a few more laps and being closer to nailing a lap which I don't think is ever really possible at Nords to be perfect everywhere so there is always time to gain. Put down a solid lap with good lines no errors hitting all apexes and use this as your base line then use the delta to see where you may be losing time and where a different approach can gain a bit more.

    Hardware wise if working properly the g29 wont be any real disadvantage to higher end hardware, I was pretty much the same pace with g27 and pedals as I am with an Accuforce and Simworx pro pedals. Actually took a while to adjust to sim driving with proper pedals after years of using the logitechs so took a while just to get back to my old pace with them. Feel and immersion plus on the limit corrections are considerably better with better hardware, but a solid single fast lap you can make easy enough with the Logitech hardware if you are used to it and a couple hundred hours will get you there.

    Also if you want to be faster putting @MrDeap on the ignore list is probably worth a few seconds per lap. :D
    chksix and vittau like this.
  7. vittau

    vittau Rookie

    Thank you, yes I use the Sidekick app which also has a delta indicator (which in fact, caused me to make mistakes quite a few times because I keep looking at it :D ).

    Assuming one is using tire blankets (which I normally do), what difference is there between a single hotlap, or doing a couple laps? I usually use soft tires and go for single laps in hotlap mode. I know there's brake temperature, but does it even make a noticeable difference in AC? Is there something else?

    Regarding the G29, I've set it up using the RasmusP LUT Guide, and usually set the cars to around 60% FFB so it doesn't clip. Input sensors all seem to be working correctly.
  8. The one thing that helped me was trail breaking technique. I was driving the correct lines and it came down to overbraking. Compare your speed at the slowest part of the apex of the turns to the videos of the faster times, a couple of tenths per corner add up in a lap around Nordscliefe.
    vittau likes this.
  9. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    Real life video or Simulator video?

    The most common thing I see is not enough brake pressure during mid entry. If you are aware how to retain the racing line, it's mostly all about focusing getting better entry speed by remaining on the racing line. When you hold the brake at 100%(obviously with ABS) the car doesn't fully plow straight & you can keep turning in. Always somehow allow the tail to wiggle a bit before starting to release a tiny bit of brake pressure & keep increasing steering rotation.

    You often hear about release the brake in coordination with the steering, but if you watch any telemetry from very fast lap... It doesn't seem to be really the case.

    The method is to kind of want to "push in, steering angle, in delay" with more rotation at every step you release the brake pressure as slower the car get by allowing the tail end move first by forcing deceleration to target & retain a specific load. When you understand the concept you can control where you want the car to be heading while having very good entry speed.

    When you press the gas to early you deviate from the racing line & the time penalty is quite harsh. It's all about entry speed & focusing at staying in the racing line(or highway which is also the shortest path).

    The remedy
  10. vittau

    vittau Rookie

    I have to say I usually have a really hard time trail-braking consistently, I usually overdo the braking input and just get massive understeer. Do you have a tip on how to switch from braking into trail-braking without understeering the car?
    However I do usually only get back on the throttle at the apex (assuming I nailed it correctly, of course).
  11. martcerv

    martcerv Alien

    Best to check delta after a corner exit and well before the next brake point as you will likely miss your reference point otherwise. ;)

    If your using all the sim features fuel burn, tyre wear etc then fuel load and tyre wear will have a significact impact on pace over multiple laps.

    Also I was kind of meaning race pace where your more feeling the car as it changes with fuel and wear as opposed to a single hotlap where you run the car at its optimum for single lap pace. Better hardware as in a dd wheel likely helps you feel more and drive more reactively. A hotlap where the car is at its optimum for tyres and fuel load you dont need to feel as much and can drive by memory a bit more I think.

    With my logitech pedals I had to keep an eye on the pedals data. I also needed a bit of a deadzone on all of them to ensure brake pr clutch werent staying slightly engaged when full throttle. I also needed to make sure throttle spiking. Without deadzones it was easy to lose a second or so on a short track not knowing where it went. At Nords this would be 4 to 5 times the loss with just a small issue of travel on any pedal axis.
    vittau likes this.
  12. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    It's simply a trick to adjust the transition. The G meter for the longitudinal have to be on the braking side.

    You brake at threehold or at 100% & turn a bit. Leave the car tail out, don't steer more. The car kind of want to turn on itself. If you input steering too early the car will understeer. If you turn in with too much steering input while braking hard, retain the steering input for a brief moment & release the brake too quick, the car oversteer mid entry. Kind of hard to explain...

    It's really about turn-in with more brake pressure although you need to carry more speed to do it. Crank more steering angle near the apex & be more patient on the accelerator to not deviate from the ideal racing line.

    Although a replay video of the actual run would make it easier to pin point the flaw with onboard view.
  13. Best advice in this entire forum.
    sissydriver, Orne, LeDude83 and 5 others like this.
  14. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    My meme pic hold a very important aspect, especially for corner exit. :D

    If the G meter is slightly in the acceleration side at the apex, you automatically have a bad line & bad exit time.
  15. LeSunTzu

    LeSunTzu Alien

    Alignment and TC can easily worth a few tenths per corner. Count the turns and do the math :D

    Best way to figure it out is to work on a shorter track and see/feel the difference.
    MrDeap likes this.
  16. LeiF

    LeiF Alien

    Firstly I would say that hotlapping nords is not the best way to get fast. There is too much time (7-8 mins) before you repeat a corner, and so many corners in between to think about, that by the time you get back to the same corner again you easily forget how you took it last time. Spend some time in your chosen car on a shorter track, preferably racing fast guys not hotlapping. Then when you take that’s car back to nords your lap time will fall like a stone.

    Use a delta app so you can see the effect of different lines after exit each corner, this can help a lot in finding extra time.

    And not listening to Mr Deap is worth up to 0.5s in each corner entry phase ;)
  17. vittau

    vittau Rookie

    Even if I get -0.2s out of every single corner that's actually a corner and not a high speed turn, that would probably be somewhere around 0,2*30 = 6s, which is still quite a ways to go before I save 19s.

    See, I did the math. :D

    I did leave it on default though, besides the usual tire pressure adjustment. I'm open for suggestions.

    I don't see any input in the Sidekick app when I'm off the pedals, do you think it's possible they are still sending out some small signal?

    I might try this out later...

    Yes, I also like Spa, but I'm more of a hot-lapping guy. I guess I'll wait for ACC to start racing haha.

    In fact, I do plan on racing the Total 24H of Spa (saving/loading after every stint, across multiple days because I'm not that crazy) when ACC is out, so I'm hoping that will help me with consistency.
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  18. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    Telemetry, simulator media database will show illumination. :D

    If the player is more than 10KPH faster at the apex. Yes I'm pointing the obvious... If it's not entry speed, what kind of other possibility?

    MOD: irrelevant GIF removed
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2018
  19. Nao

    Nao Alien

    Maybe upload us 918 replay somewhere... that Saleen looked good but not "really fast". To be more specific onboard pov would be needed.

    If you feel stagnated, a big change is probably what you need. Take a longer break from simracing, learn to drift, drive street cars (if you are focused on racing ones only) or even drive other sims, mess with hardware setup (different FoV etc), read a lot on driving* ... anything that will put you outside your simracing comfort. Then after you adapt to new situation, return to what you've been doing earlier and you'll see an improvement most likely.

    * - If you think you know a lot about racing lines, you don't know anything :p. Think of correct racing lines as emergent from driving fast (in opposition of the usual, drive a correct racing line to be fast), if you are not fast enough it means that your lines are not fast either, so try to analyze driving styles of fast drivers (for example from onboard videos both sim and IRL) or read books on it and see what's different.
  20. PhilS13

    PhilS13 Alien

    Is there a point where someone is going to say ok we had enough of this ?

    I mean I'm not sure the poor dude is breaking any forum rules per say but at some point there has to be a limit on the total amount of BS you are allowed to throw up?
  21. pankykapus

    pankykapus KS Dev Team Staff Member KS Dev Team

    @MrDeap: final warning for posting OT stuff. Also, we have received the message regarding your "driving tips", any more repetition will unfortunately be considered obsessive and thus against forum rules.

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