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Why am I still so slow?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by vittau, Jul 22, 2018.

  1. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    Overhead


    It's better to simply ignore everything & look at line & input. I learned by doing the complete opposite of @PhilS13 & it worked for me. It really depend how you envision the wording & interpret the driving.

     
  2. LotusRacer

    LotusRacer Gamer

    Which version of the track exactly? I will try it and see what I get.
     
  3. OP, Personally, on that video, you don't look to be driving on the limits at all, which is how these tops times are set, you seem to be very safe, inexperienced and cautious. I can see you need to get on the power earlier, it'll definitely take practice, then you'll be able to use more of the track on exit.

    Also, trail braking technique, master it is a must. This will probably give you your biggest gains across the board once mastered.

    And if you haven't already find the best brake bias and brake gamma for you.

    @MrDeap What I do is watch an onboard of my replay and then immediately watch the fastest onboard on that track, the comparisons then easily show me what I need to get good at to "adapt" as the top drivers have.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
    jaxx_za likes this.
  4. jaxx_za

    jaxx_za Hardcore Simmer

    Thanks for the underlined bit - I noticed when studying quick laps on youtube that aliens are braking much later into the corner than I can, so I have been looking into trail braking. Iunderstand the general approach, but feel like I'm missing something.

    Would you mind explaining how you yourself go about trail braking, and what brake bias would be best?

    One thing i sorta figured (not sure of I'm right though), is that moving straight from gas to brake unsettles the car, and I end up sliding into the corner. It seems to help if I come off the gas just before my brake point to allow the car to settle before braking, but this seems inefficient. I don't drive with both feet, so no sure if there is abetter way to settle the car.

    Then with regards to bias - excess rear bias cause the rear to slide under normal braking - but does it help with trail braking?

    Would appreciate if you could explain how you approach trail braking.



    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
     
    SidewayzShuffle// likes this.
  5. Ace Pumpkin

    Ace Pumpkin Alien

    All depends on the car! Street cars react other than race cars, to be a bit on the general side.
    Rule of thumb: with low or none downforce cars you need to be gentle initially, only squeeze the brake at first, let the weight settle, then go full heaps. Releasing is just as gentle. Mind your weight transfer!
    With high df cars, jump on the breaks initially as hard as you can, then feather of progressively and gently. Don’t care for brake bias settings first. You need to learn to feel the grip!
     
  6. Nao

    Nao Alien

    The reason aliens brake so late is a result of following both ideal line and ideal speed. It's pretty easy to grasp basics of "ideal line" but ideal speed is just as important but much less talked about (often one implies the other too). Being quick is not really about being super late breaker but about having a correct speed at every given position in the corner. For example you could take any of your own laps, brake earlier but more smoother, taking more speed in and have the same laptime. Aliens try to follow correct corner speeds all the time and initial braking point is only a result of a requirement of correct (high) entry speed.

    What i mean is that instead of a mindset of braking as late as possible and somehow slowing down in time for apex, try braking early enough to decelerate smoothly and follow speeds needed for every point on the corner. After you learn to control your speed during braking and entry, braking points will become late naturally.

    So when trying to trailbrake first think "what speed do i need to be driving right now" at every point from entry to apex apply brakes consciously. After that to get to alien level you'll need a setup that allows a car to be on the razor's edge of grip the whole time during braking.
    Best laptimes use significant amounts of tyre drag (from high slip angles) and engine braking (aggresive shifting). These are relatively tricky to do consistently, so when learning to trailbrake i'd focus on slowing down more by brakes (this also means more rearwards brake bias) initially so you can focus on one skill at a time.

    A rearwards brake bias that is good for trailbraking should not cause rear to slide under straight line, but if it happens it might not be brake's fault. Some cars have aerodynamics or weight transfer that can cause rear lockups, for example in GT2 it's easy to set it up so that front splitter sucks the front down more than normal at initial brake application, this momentarily lifts the rear too much causing start of a lockup which continues after car is settled with a normal pitch. It can be cured by brake balance yes, but it also can be mitigated by suspension settings or driving style (push the brake pedal to 50-70% initially and continue to 100% after half a second).
    Also as you get faster things actually can become easier as aggressive shifting and car balance setup reduces the need for having too much rear brake force.

    ps: Some drivers like to have significantly rearward brake bias and use throttle when trailbraking to balance the car, throttle use IRL is debatable but in sim it can help a bit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
    Christina_Z, chksix, jaxx_za and 6 others like this.
  7. Ace Pumpkin

    Ace Pumpkin Alien

    Very good explanation, as always.
    But you know you are talking to a first-stepper?
    So, I think your professional approach is not helpful here.

    To me it was a welcomed read. :)
     
    chksix, paul_wev and Minolin like this.
  8. I actually really like the quick explaination that @Ace Pumpkin has given. I don't think I can explain it quicker and am still learning myself ;)

    @Nao goes into it very nicely. but also focusing on the exploits used in the sim. Huge Thanks!

    Anyways since you did ask me, I'll try to explain some & other things. Haha I feel there's no need for me since it's been covered really nicely, Nao really went into it well with it so if nothing I say makes sense, you've got him and Ace .

    "moving straight from gas to brake unsettles the car, and I end up sliding into the corner."

    Depending on car, you can even spin out by letting off brake too abruptly as you turn in. That's why the fastest laps are those who know how to apply advanced racing techniques smoothly, to not upset the balance of the car, to have the car always working with them, in connection, working in rythm with the car, at one with the car, a deeper understanding of what can and cannot be done, and then captialising on the car's strengths. Rather than pushing it over the edge and hoping it grips back. You have to know the car to work with it.

    You generally don't need a special brake bias settings to trail brake. Depending on car and usually it's differential setting I can move the bias a bit more or less forward to help my stability. I Generally upto 59% front bias on MR RWD cars like the 787b. It can vary.

    I do not recommend using a rear bias braking setup on any car, like you said you slide under normal braking and you're mostly likely not going to maximise the car's grip this way.

    It's not an easy thing for me to explain, You have to be technical on the brake and smooth off the brake. I personally maintain very little braking from turn-in to apex where I lock-in most my steering while braking will smooth out to have no braking at apex. But I am still working on my technique, have gained tremendously in all areas because of learning this, even saving my corners when I least expect it.

    "
    Here's how to trail brake:
    1. Brake in a straight line at maximum force.
    2. Slightly before the turn in point begin to ease off the brakes.
    3. Begin to turn into the corner.
    4. As you increase steering angle, reduce braking pressure.


    that's what google says, it's simple exaplanation, a bit too general but mostly correct.

    As you begin to bleed off the brakes (depending on car) you can maximise traction quickly turning in with the wheel, smoothly, precisely to load up the front tires just before it's maximum grip going into the corner but not overdriving it. Getting a sense, being able to feel the grip of the car, tyres and the differential to know how to adapt the technique for different cars it's slightly different application/force of bleeding of the brakes. If you don't have any feel that's ok you'll get the feeling with practice.



    there are some good guides online to read up, but I'll link this in depth article as it does mention great points with clarity, even though it's in the context of bikes. I suggest you practice on your favourite track so you get a feel for it to tie in with the reading.
    http://www.ridinginthezone.com/10-things-you-need-to-know-about-trailbraking/

    There's also other benefits to trail braking

    "Staying on the brakes past turn-in allows more time and space to get your entry speed just right. On the other hand, if you release the brakes completely before leaning, you have committed to that entry speed. If you need to slow more, you’ll have to begin braking again, which can easily upset the chassis and stress the tires."

    Usually what happens with people is overshooting the corner from braking too late, they are trying so hard to go faster this way, but it's too difficult and definetly not consistent, it's counter-productive in vasty majority of cases. Mastery of Trail braking is the way to quicker laps, a better racing line, late-braking can sometimes be a part of it, but by itself, it's usually a recipe for disaster.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  9. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    According to @Nao lap, he doesn't. Play the video in slow motion in my previous post.

    In most scenario, you turn the steering before easing off the brake(you can see the steering input overhead), especially with car that has ABS.

    Also, early on the throttle is a terrible advice. Look at post #34.
     
  10. " you turn the steering before easing off the brake" Sounds like you have it confused. Doing that would generally lead to screeching tyres and overdriving the car, understeering into the wall.


    "early on the throttle is a terrible advice"

    I don't think you understand what I wrote, because that's not it.

    Edit: Post 34? Your post is #31 on my screen.. here https://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?threads/why-am-i-still-so-slow.50332/page-2#post-979841

    but i'll look into it...ok seems you're taking a completely different racing line, and in a very different car. That alone should or could disqualify the comparison. Hard to tell..That corner going into the next one has a few ways to tackle it, I think the saleen has the better "faster" line, speed in braking on that short straightish section, trailing into the next? He didn't drive off track correct? He has downforce, you don't, so your point isn't presented well and incorrect in my eyes. The differences in the cars are too great, therefore, This picture doesn't make sense to me. A road car versus a longer racecar with amazing downforce? You drive those cars differently by default and one is way slower. But I think I know what point you're trying to make you haven't made it a fair comparison so I can't say it's conclusive at all, I see no proof in that picture whatsoever. Such comparison really demands equal car at least. And I can't see his speed there either, I'd have to check video for that. Something to remember.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
    chksix and Ace Pumpkin like this.
  11. Ace Pumpkin

    Ace Pumpkin Alien

    After that superb inside explaination, you need to tell there are cars you don’t want to trail brake at all (look at that traction cycle!)
    Mostly street allowanced Hyper cars, but you can also see this behavior in the 458, and even in lower spec tier cars.
     
    SidewayzShuffle// likes this.
  12. Ace Pumpkin

    Ace Pumpkin Alien

    You never give up, do you?
     
    chksix, LeiF and Nahkamarakatti like this.
  13. jaxx_za

    jaxx_za Hardcore Simmer

    Thank you for taking the time to write this - it is a dynamic I haven't thought of.
    I do get the concept of trail braking and have been practicing, but find that I don't always know when the wheels are about to lock - which is probably where I'm going wrong.
    What has thrown me off was that I found that in turn 1 at Mugello, by easing off the gas a second earlier than the braking point, I could start trail braking a little later into the corner - and have been assuming that the car balance was the reason for this (ie. car is more settled before the brake application).

    However based on your explanation, I've probably been managing the speed into the corner better, due to the more controlled brake application resulting from not having to switch pedals with the right foot.
    To thanks a mil for clearing that up - I would have been going down to wrong path.
     
  14. Nao

    Nao Alien

    I'd disagree a bit on that since no matter the car ideal line (and ideal speed) is the fastest way around even if it underuses grip (because car has understeer and forward brake bias). And i was on your side of argument 2-3 years ago before getting triple screens. But with that visual advantage being able to accurately sense speed mid corner, following ideal speeds (gradually letting off brakes when closing on apex) really ended up being faster than throwing the car hard and using maximum grip of all 4 tyres in most (not all) cases even with hyper/muscle cars.

    Let's not go into another "Deep" discussion here... especially when there are cars in AC that have ABS which is perfectly fine with steering while braking at 100%
     
  15. MrDeap

    MrDeap Hardcore Simmer

    no offense, but I'm looking at the data & it's clearly contradicting his method.
     
    Christina_Z likes this.
  16. Ace Pumpkin

    Ace Pumpkin Alien

    Yeah, I noticed you are fixed to data.
    Did it ever occur to you,there could be a lack of sufficient data you would like to refer to?
    Gut feel over cognition is what the neurophysisists say...
     
  17. jaxx_za

    jaxx_za Hardcore Simmer

    Thank you for the detailed explanation.
    Just one other thing that I've been wondering about - how critical is left foot braking to car balance and effective braking?
    Is it possible to achieve good results with right foot braking ?
     
    SidewayzShuffle// likes this.
  18. "(gradually letting off brakes when closing on apex) really ended up being faster than throwing the car hard " Isn't that trail braking or a form of it?

    As for the latter, I don't think it would work IRL but if you say it works in game, I'll have to try it myself. Each game has its own exploits. Theoretically perfect ABS would just be doing its job a little too good, allowing you to overdrive the car without actually doing so, the tyre loads are managed.



    Pretty sure the top drivers use both their feet. I know I do. I couldn't do it with just the right foot, but I haven't really tried, my transitions would be bad I'm guessing. If you enjoy right foot, it's upto you but I'm going to say it will put you at a disadvantage unless maybe everyone has a clutch. I don't know how good you can get at right foot braking, I've not tried to.

    Left foot braking is nessecary on some rear engined cars far as I know since sometimes you need both pedals abit pressed or something(?)

    See pros and cons in article https://driver61.com/uni/left-foot-braking/

    Edit there's also this benefit for the FWD lovers: https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/.../110719-turning-faster-left-foot-braking.html
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
    jaxx_za likes this.
  19. Nao

    Nao Alien

    Yeah that was the point, Ace mentioned that Hypercars can/should be driven without trailbraking, and that is definitely one good way to drive them, but i just feel trailbraking still can be faster.

    As for RL ABS, not driven fast modern cars with anger myself but just reading about how the system works, it basically trailbrakes by itself regulating the braking force depending on steering, speed and g-forces, newer AC cars have EBB too, which due to how control electronics depend on driver and car sensors can extract better performance from 100% braking all the way when compared to threshold/trail braking. edit: I mean literally car turns in better at 100% brakes because of more rearward brake balance.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
    SidewayzShuffle// likes this.
  20. @Nao

    Yeah I feel it's uses are pretty much across the board, all types of cars. I've not found a car where it's faster by avoiding trail braking. I am at large still inexperienced and tend to stick to rear-engined RWD cars, so I don't know lol. But I imagine there are some configurations that don't or barely need it out there somewhere. The best way would to be comparing lap and sector times etc with video if someone would try to compare such.
     
    Nao likes this.
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