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Why there aren't damage model how old sims?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by Spark 2, Oct 11, 2016.

  1. AC has a bad damage model in the way it works. Making it 150% stronger will just make it an additional 50% bad.
     
    Matty28 likes this.
  2. Yeah I'm definitely not keen on the aero damage, even slight tap to the front or rear completely changes the lift/drag, far more than I'd say would be normal. This usually means unbalanced aero, which would be expected with a large enough contact, but also the crazy amount of drag even small contacts produce.
     
    ShredatorFIN likes this.
  3. Spark 2

    Spark 2 Gamer

    Sorry, I forgot quote this:

    150% must be make the car less strong, do not? and 50% more.
     
  4. That's not the issue. More damage is fine. But then it needs to make sense... On AC just trading paint can ruin your race, it's weird.
     
    snyperal and garyjpaterson like this.
  5. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

    As if any of the crash test dummies would care about that. Seriously, they wouldn't even notice that their car is slower …
     
  6. Mogster

    Mogster Alien

    Aero damage should be more significant in cars with lots of aero surfaces. In AC you get a huge penalty for slight panel damage even with road based cars.

    As someone else said real life touring and rallycross cars seem to remain competetive with quite severe panel damage.
     
    ShredatorFIN likes this.
  7. BrandonW77

    BrandonW77 Alien

    Oh come on now. Anyone who's ever watched real motorsports knows that hitting/avoiding debris on the track is a very real and regular part of racing. Having some collideable bits fall of the car now and then doesn't require super-computer processing, nor does it require BeamNG levels of damage model. If you want to, as you say, "accurately simulate the racing experience" then debris on track should be part of that experience because I see it in just about every race I watch. I'm not terribly bothered by its absence in AC but I certainly would be happy if it were added because it would add to the realism and immersion.
     
  8. Orne

    Orne Alien

    Didn't Project Cars at one time have a more advanced damage model but SMS had to tone it done because it was affecting frame rates ?
     
  9. you missing the point man, a lot of stuff that we are missing today, that older generation sims attempted to simulate, and that doesn't mean current gen simulators have to skip those things
     
  10. PhilS13

    PhilS13 Alien

    key word being attempted?

    Take engine temps...you had a dial showing water temp. Ok. Calculated off of what? Maybe air temp, engine load? (maybe only rpm), air speed and cooling duct opening. Cool.

    You ran the car on a given track, got a certain water temp, decreased the duct until temps were still ok. Nice. Wow so much depth in that game right?...expect all those numbers were not backed by anything in real life. They were just put there with incredibly basic equations, no heat transfer math, no heat generation math. Nothing serious. We ran that game and said wow it "simulates" overheating but in fact we were just seeing a number loosely resembling what the real life number would look like. We didn't care if it was incredibly inconsistent in most if not all scenarios...it didn't matter.

    Try implementing such basic systems today and it gets torn apart.
    Try implementing something closer to reality, you'll be working months on it and still have to base it off somewhat imaginary data. Ever tried to ask a car manufacturer what is the engine cooling capacity of their package? Why do you think brake temps is taking a while to implement?
     
    Dookie and Alistair McKinley like this.
  11. Matty28

    Matty28 Simracer

    Could've given some examples at least? I still don't know what's missing.
     
  12. chakko

    chakko Alien

    AC could use a better damage model, i totally agree. Also the way the car is getting damaged now, even with no body work damage, is pretty weird. When you break a suspension, the car is mostly undriveable. That's not present in AC. You may get some less top speed, or the steering is bend, but, apart from that, there doesn't even seem to exist any specific kind of damage modelling. OP is right, that's something which is definitely worse than in any other sim in AC. And i do think that this is an important point on the todo-list. Get real and stuff. :p Damage is a vital part of real life racing. And it's also something which prevents people from slamming into each other, because, when you're damaged, and you can scratch your race, then you might consider being a bit more cautious next time.
     
    Spark 2 likes this.
  13. Quffy

    Quffy Alien

    To improve the damage mechanics of internal and external parts, but more of the external parts, they would need to work on it from the beginning. So since the game isn't prepared for it it gets pushed to AC:Next Game, just like every other big feature desired for current AC :p
    This is becoming a meme, just like when there's a problem with games in Source engine... Source 2 will fix it. The technology isn't there yet.
     
  14. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

    Proper pit stop UI, pitstops in practise sessions, timed races, dynamic grip (like real, not the made up thing), online track/car switching, proper flag system, mod folder support, visual blistering/graining, brake temp support (coming), online controller profile selection, improved server filtering (like MR grades or such).

    Really, I could go on like this for hours.

    Of course, it's up to you how you rate all of those things. I see that you rate the damage model as being very important.
    Well, I don't. I don't want to damage my car and it's the one thing I try to avoid the most.
    And if I do damage it, I don't give a s*** about how it looks, I just want to get rid of the damage.
     
  15. Matty28

    Matty28 Simracer

    Okay well dynamic grip, online track/car switching, brake temp support, blistering I can get behind. Didn't occur to me pit stop UI was bad, nor the flags, not sure why practice pitstops aren't implemented but also not sure why anyone would care when you can just go back to the garage, not sure what mod folder support is or why it's beneficial, same with online controller profile selection, not sure how more filtering of like 5 populated servers is worth spending any time on at all, especially as this number will dwindle down to maybe 1 or 2 like with most other sims over time.

    Please bear in mind I am not saying "damage must be #1 priority", I am taking issue with the notion that it is of no importance whatsoever and every issue under the sun no matter how minor (e.g. practice pitstops) should take preference.

    Don't you also not want to have blistered tyres? If you get them, why do you care how it looks and wouldn't you want to get rid of them ASAP? Could just have a HUD message saying "blistered" instead like with damage.
     
  16. So the way to go is just ingnore everything about those and get rid of any simulation of it at all right? that's the way next gen sims have to go ;) welccome to the future guys
     
  17. c172fccc

    c172fccc Gamer

    I remember that quote, but actually, it is true.
    Great for them if none of the manufacturers gave them any limitations for the damage. However, I can definitly say that most if not all manufacturers that SMS licenced for Project CARS gave limitations to them, some more strict than others.

    Edit: Forgot to say that this is a limitation for visual damage only, don't think there are any limitations for mechanical damage.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  18. martcerv

    martcerv Alien

    Damage in AC is one of its poorest aspect both physical and visual. I have never had a puncture in AC, I have never seen an open wheel car bend its front or rear wing in reality but this happens in ac. Real OW cars dont shatter their small perspex windscreen from a minor contact, also suspension regularly breaks form any contact with a wall and wheels tend to come off. Front wings break and lose bits or the entire wing assembly breaks off in AC it just bends a little and loses top speed more then downforce mostly.

    A small bump door to door shouldnt cost you 5kmh down the straight. In any gt car or a tiny nose to tail push. Suspension should bend much easier and hitting a wall on the right shouldnt damage the opposite side of the car.
     
    Kopiller and Albert McSaltens like this.
  19. Coanda

    Coanda Alien

    I take your point however I am not so sure about that... They seem happy enough to let them get smashed up for a movie. A recent movie I watched even suggested an air bag failure in a new model Ford. Ford do not manufacture the air bag however allot of people would not know that. pCars has an ok visual damage model, well better than AC & rF2 when it works. If you are right how did they get around it?

    I think AC has a great base and for the long term future a proper damage model would be one area i would love to see implemented along with weather and track dynamics.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  20. Orne

    Orne Alien


    Have you done any research to confirm whether or not films need permission/licensing from a particular manufacture to use a car in a film? I honestly don't know. But lets not assume and make casual comparisons between racing sims and films when it comes to the representation of cars and how they are depicted in films vs. driving simulators.


    IMHO damage modeling takes quite a bit of work to get right and arguably the only games that seem to do a good job are those whose sole focus is crashing. The objective of a driving simulator is driving not crashing so in the big scheme of things you have to focus on whats most important since it takes quite a bit of work to get the vehicle physics correct as well as the tyre model then make it all still work when adjustments are made to the car.. Then add in tyre temps, brake temps.

    Damage could certainly be better in AC as it could it other driving simulators but the bottom line is in the big scheme of things its not the most important thing. Once again the objective is to drive and race the car, once you wreck in most cases in real life your day is over. Why focus on something that isnt the objective when racing a car ? We dont race to crash we race to win obviously.

    Also add in the fact that visual damage can affect frame rates quite dramatically at times. Parts strewn across the race track, tyres bouncing around, all of these things would affect performance.

    Engine and transmission damage would be more important things to pursue than realistic visual damage IMO. If you're not using the clutch properly or missing shifts then damage should be reflected as a result.

    Although the bread and butter is still driving the car and racing, everything else is icing on the cake.

    Comparing arcade racing game damage to what is or isn't present in a hardcore simulator is missing the point.

    How in depth do you think the visual damage in the industrial simulators that the F1 drivers use is ?

    Computing resources aren't finite there is only so much time, money, man power and horsepower to get things done and ultimately you have to choose whats most important in the title you are creating..

    Too many are missing this point
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
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