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Would you prefer AC2 or AC1 Rolling updates? Re. Stefano Casillo interview

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by Crayfis, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. Crayfis

    Crayfis Gamer

    The recent interview with Stefano Casillo in which he joked that 'whatever game we make next will have rain and night" got me thinking again about the future of AC.
    I've long worried that after so much investment in this game, and with the slow but continual inching toward a really complete racing sim, that Kunos will at some point start making AC2, just as we are finally achieving the sim we dreamed of all those years ago back in 2013. I do understand that Kunos is a business and that they will have to go in the direction that makes the most financial sense, but the shift to a full blown sequel for me is a bad move for several reasons:

    1.) As already mentioned, even though we got version 1.0 back in 2014, AC has always really been a somewhat, in development / early access title. So many features and basic functionality took so long to be, or are still not included that it seems wrong to move on to a new title to finally implement them.

    2.) The huge community investment in AC1 in terms of custom content, servers, leagues and straight up hard earned cash for DLC packs would mostly not count toward anything in AC2.

    3.) The community would be split between AC1 and AC2. Sim racing is an expensive hobby. The online AC community is already fragmented due to the way AC handles online DLC content. As recently discussed by Random Callsign AC requires you to own all DLC to race in a server using that content, rather than allowing you to race against cars that you dont own as some other sims do. A full blown move to AC2 would clearly divide the community even further.

    4.) It seems like dollar for dollar that Kunos make good money on DLC packs of a few cars compared to the creation of an entirely new sim. Not sure about figures here but Steam Spy lists AC as having over half a million owners and the DLC packs are always in the new release / top seller listings on the front page. If users were on board with AC1 for the long haul, I dont see why it wouldn't be sustainable and profitable.

    5.) There is nothing essentially 'wrong' with AC1 that couldn't be fixed. AC is absolutely beautiful and also has fantastic driving physics, it really makes no sense to me with regard to the core Sim itself to abandon it to move onto a new title. It holds up or blows away its main competition in these core areas.
    I understand that certain features, like weather, night cycles and dynamic track surface etc could be extremely hard to work back into the main engine, but I would much rather undergo any inconvenience caused by major surgery on the AC1 engine, or even going without these features if it meant we kept continuity with the content and community as it stands.

    How do others feel? I notice quite strong support for a full shift to AC2 in youtube and forum comments regarding AC's current shortfalls, so I know many do not share my concerns. Would you like to see AC2, continual rolling updates to AC1, or perhaps even a third way like the Iracing suubscription model?

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  3. Tberg

    Tberg Alien

    By all means, it seems weird that you come with such arguements, when steam activity says you have 82hours in the game, the first few unlocks back in december 2013.
    Maybe you'd think you had your moneys worth if you had 10x the hours?

    Anyway, this is the type of speculative threads that aren't exactly moving things forward, at worst they create rumours that devs can be bothered with for years. I do understand what you mean by it, but no one knows anything about Kunos future plans, and if they include AC2, how that scenario will play out in terms of all the work they can/can't port from AC1.
    So chill, come online on some of the regular admined servers or get some more of those steam achievements, lots of hours waiting for you in AC1 :D

    Cheers buddy!
    Tim Meuris, jonnyboy_99 and Horus like this.
  4. Skybird

    Skybird Alien

    If they plan an AC2 - that means: IF - then I would take it as a safe bet that by now they already have entered a stage of investigating their options and research new technologies. All this I count to a stage where any producer clever enough still does not go public with his ideas and imaginations. Its too early for announcements.

    And now lets get Test Drive Unlimited 3 done, Kunos! :D With typhoon rains and frightening vampyres nights! LOL
    Horus likes this.
  5. WallyM

    WallyM Alien

    Some features like rain and night will never happen in AC1. Kunos has said that it would involve a complete engine rewrite, so if you're going to go to that effort, you might as well call that AC2. For all I know, other things Kunos may wish to change in AC might not be technically possible or feasible, and an AC2 might be the only chance to make those desired changes.
    WilliamRiker, grandepunto and Horus like this.
  6. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    What investment ?

    It is absolutely right to do so. First of all it probably will be easier to start some stuff from scratch. Second, it is starting to get irrational to keep beating the same horse. Be happy that Kunos are not Codemasters, which are releasing a new title each year. I guess thats bad as "investment".

    Yeah hopefully all these things (except "hard earned" DLCs) will be very easy to adapt to the next title (if it is going to be AC2 what we all are hoping for). But I doubt it. Because something might be done in completely different way or something like that... I do hope that it would be moddable too.

    Why split ? If it would be proper sequel then it is not going to happen. And simracing is very cheap, well except iRacing. A single proper trackday would be more expensive, even without totalling your car and bariers I suppose :D

    I also think that AMOUNT of content, and AMOUNT of servers is fragmenting playerbases in games. Possibly amount of servers mostly. Ofcourse having mixed grids from a few different dlc packs also does it, or hosting mod content "which is such a waste of time to find, download and install". If there would be 10K of avg players in Assetto Corsa per month then it wouldn't be a case, but sadly motorsports simulation is as popular as it is. By reading "streetfight" thread you could also find such diamonds like "different pace drivers", or "too low sun angles" also divides the playerbases lol

    Sadly AC is not PUBG, if it was you would never have an idea about dividing playerbase.

    AC2 on other hand COULD increase the playerbase. I have never thought about Project Cars at all, but now as PC2 was comming I had a little spark of interest, even though it is not what I need. AC2 with proper marketing and right evolution could at least double the player base. Unless someone else would blow the market.

    Well because you don't see the actual figures, and don't participate in the development and don't visit the kitchen. Imagine if the playerbase is not growing, just simply stopped growing, also if by any case the DLC started to sell less. I'm not saying that it did, but if it didn't, then it inevitably will.

    Just calm down and pretend that by buying AC1, you have invested for AC2 :D
    Tim Meuris, Horus, Alexandr66 and 2 others like this.
  7. Skybird

    Skybird Alien

    Rolling updates for AC1, or a newly designed AC2, its just words. Raceroom plans to inject a complete new graphics engine into their game in the future, while sticking to the old game. Possible it is to act like this, obviously. Question is for the balance between gains and workload investments.

    To me it would be more about a redone game package design, to me this is where AC1 is kind of weak. And such a change may indeed be hard to implement into an already existing package.
  8. LChaves

    LChaves Hardcore Simmer

    I would be happy with either honestly, there's still life in AC and there are still things that could use improvements.
    The headlining features are probably too expensive to be included into AC1, huge overhaul required and given for free... i wouldn't have a problem buying a second game for it.

    The only thing that would make me unhappy is if AC2 comes with the number of standard cars/tracks well below what we have now.
    If they follow the Pcars 2 model (credit where it's due) of making the DLC cars of Pcars standard in the second game, i wouldn't have a single problem with it...

    Some cars can be culled, we don't need an SLS GT3 and a AMG GT3, a 2012 M3 and a 2015 M4... but we can't go back to where AC 1.0 was, i'm sure KS knows this too.
  9. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    That might be the big misunderstanding. Yes your idea is pretty charming and I'd be all in - but the developers might see it different.

    Doing a sequel is a huge relief in the first place: There are no old promises to hold. Finally you can get rid of anything you disliked so far - Single/Dual Core support? Wreck it. Cumbersome, moddable GUI? 3 programming APIs? No need. Failed to write good code model in e.g. race session handling? No need to copy that one.
    Design decisions may be reviewed and put into perspective, was it worth it? Do we want to pay the price? (I'd bet we will see less modding possibilities in AC2, but more like stuff you never even heared of)

    So for us it's fine, but I can totally see how developers want a fresh start. Maybe some of you remember the story about 40k Wifes in one of Stefano's livestreams. Doing another title is like putting the few really loved Wifes into a car and just run away with them, starting a new life with a new name.
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2017
    Neilski, QC., Horus and 2 others like this.
  10. The sooner AC2 development start the better for me , i adore AC and cannot wait for kunos to work on the second , i think their main concern is what engine the game will use as im guessing they know what features the community would like and they themselves have aspirations of what they want to acheieve in AC2 . Either way the time will be long for us fans but there will be plenty of mods to keep us from pestering kunos to death :D
    Michael Hornbuckle and djtopa like this.
  11. Tberg

    Tberg Alien

    Fifa anyone? :confused:

    Can't believe I've actually bought this a few years in a row....
    Alistair McKinley likes this.
  12. AC2 is coming soon. :D
  13. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

    Before I start writing on this, please let me give you a small disclaimer:
    I am absolutely pro rolling updates and continuity and I'm absolutely ok with financing that with DLC.
    I've supported DCS World and Euro Truck Simulator 2 ever since they came out.
    Especially the latter is a great example for the rolling-release approach:
    I think you have to look at this from a realistic point of view. As stated above, in principle, I'd agree with you and keep AC as it is + future development.
    However, you have to think about its origin. AC was not planned as the game that it became now. With many features, a lot of content and not even the team size they have now.
    It was barely more than a hobby project by a few Italian simracing enthusiasts.
    As such, it was born with a few limitations in its engine which – as stated by Stefano in that interview – became more and more apparent (and possibly a burden) in the development of AC recently.

    So in the end, what you're looking at here is the requirement for a massive overhaul of AC's engine.
    Now they have to think about how much time this will take and if it can be financed using DLC.
    It seems that the answer to that is no.

    Just to give you an idea of what we're talking about here:
    DCS World just received such a massive overhaul knows as "DCS World 2.0". It took them over 2 years to get this from alpha state into a somewhat stable release and it doesn't end there.
    Currently, I couldn't play DCS World (despite it being F2P), because the Caucasian map was not yet converted over to 2.0 and I don't own the new Nevada map (yet).
    (Ok, I could switch back to the 1.5 branch, but that's not the point here. ;))
    Also, it's not like they were mainly working on the stable branch then developing 2.0 in a backyard, but rather they put many resources into 2.0 and it just took a damn long time to complete.
    (There was an intermediate 1.5, but apart from that not much work went into aircrafts etc. for pre-2.0 since a long time)
    So for many users, especially on Steam, it was mostly in an almost inactive state of development for a long time.
    The same seems to be the case for R3E. I don't quite recall when they first published some pictures with the Unreal Engine, for which there were even claims they were just a mockup.
    But it has been quite some time and ever since, you didn't really read that much of it.

    Now obviously we don't know how long the whole process will take until they can publish some more info or even early access, but I wouldn't bet on anything before next autumn (they've hinted that maybe they could present something at Simracing Expo 2018).
    If they would do this as a further-developed AC1, meaning rolling-release, then they would need to have, support and further develop a stable branch of AC1 to justify the DLC they most likely need to finance the ongoing development as a projection towards the new engine.
    Thus it would likely take much more time than if they just made a clean cut and drop the parallel development. As seen with DCS World.

    My main motivation for having rolling-release rather than recurring releases is that it really sucks to leave good content behind, like it happened so often.
    But at Simracing Expo a few people talked to Stefano and Marco and from what I've heard they try to transport all content to AC2.
    Can't tell if it's the truth (or even possible) or if those people were just talking crap, but if so, then my main point would vanish and I would be in full support for AC2. ;)
    (Ok, with the restriction that I really hope it's not Win10-exclusive, as I've already stated in another thread.)

    Apart from this, I hope that they design the engine of AC2 (which I'd really like them to call ACE after all :)) with having expandability, flexibility and foresight, so that they have to perfect base to build a rolling-release game upon it in the future. :cool:
    Well yes and no.
    If they don't mess up – and I really don't think they will – then this will be a non-issue.
    Actually, it could be an opportunity, because it might remove the fragmentation due to DLC.
    If they keep all content of AC1 in AC2, then it is quite possible that it will be base content. (note that this is just a assumption by me and it could be totally different)
    This would significantly reduce fragmentation. Now if AC2 in terms of physics, feeling etc. stands up to AC1, and I have no doubts that it will and also features all content from AC1, then I don't see anybody staying with AC1, at least not for much longer than leagues etc. are running.

    Will be very interesting what they come up with, especially for the graphics engine.
    In-house, Unreal Engine, CryEngine, Unity, …?
    Will it have support for DX11 only or will there be support DX12 or Vulkan? If DX12, will it be exclusive or will there be a DX11 fallback mode for those not running Win10?
    Very interesting questions and that's before we even come to the parts that really matter for simracing. ^^

    Oh and finally, you should see it as a chance for Kunos.
    Marco said that the sales of a DLC don't justify the costs for a whole series.
    Maybe with releasing a full game, they can finally include such a whole series (be it something like WTCC or some GT3 series) including all cars and tracks for that series for a whole year it ran.
    Oh yeah, open world support (not even asking about an official map, but support for that) and mass AI traffic (meaning 100s of cars, obviously with dumbed down physics) would be one of the most awesome features that AC2 (did I mention that it would be awesome to call it ACE? :D) could possibly have. :)

    TL;DR: yay AC2 :)
  14. Mogster

    Mogster Alien

    I'd buy into early access of the next product even if it was only one car and track with new weather, lighting and such.

    When Kunos were independent I think we may have seen that but I doubt Digital Bros would be interested in that type of arrangement. I suspect we'll see a large multi platform release.

    I can't believe we'll see all of AC's content in AC2... That sounds great, but bonkers :eek:
    Horus likes this.
  15. Horus

    Horus Alien

    I would like to know if it will be Kunos or Digital Bros that will be the creators/designers of AC2. Personally I want the pathological, ignorant, abusive, controlling, egotistical, beardyman that can play a mean guitar and the smooth dude that can talk an F1 car out of Ferrari and the really clever team that they have around them. Cost does not come into it when you have a passionate team that seem to be working for you alone.
  16. mantasisg 2

    mantasisg 2 Alien

    Haha @Horus The way you described made me think about this for some reason lol

    Free to interpretate who is who haha
    Horus likes this.
  17. Ferdi

    Ferdi Hardcore Simmer

    I'd say it's fair to assume it'll be Kunos. There's no point for DB to keep the Kunos guys on board if they plan to just use the IP and go their own direction, I'm sure Stefano, Marco, Aris and the rest of the team take too much pride in their work to ever let that happen.
    Horus likes this.
  18. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    One might suspect it will be the game developer of both
  19. Tberg

    Tberg Alien

    You'd be surprised what some of the big players in biz does to smaller companies, when they buy them out. I don't see DB though as someone that want to go that direction also, so hopefully Kunos stay boss about what would happen to their next title.
    Horus likes this.
  20. Horus

    Horus Alien

    LOL one of my favourite TV shows ever, I even bought the dvd collection so my sons could watch it.
    LeiF and mantasisg 2 like this.
  21. GCCRacer

    GCCRacer Simracer

    It would be an incredible clever move (and sadly just as unlikely) if an AC2 engine could accept AC1 content (even DLC cars) to be copied over, or transformed with acceptable effort or such.

    The "big things missing" seem to be stuff like rain and night - not for me personally, but what the community has been asking. This wouldn't invalidate the vehicle content we already have, unless they do a major change on the physics engine.

    I've said a few times that I would be paying for "Feature DLC". Obviously not buying that would lock people out of certain servers, but so would AC2 lock people out of AC1 servers. "Next Generation DLC pack" to feature a few GFX improvements, working DRS/Detection, enhanced Flags/Rules, Shootout Qualifying... for 30 bucks? It'd be like AC 1.5 release, compatible with all mods and current tracks/cars.

    Maybe such a thing could be the final release before moving to the next project.

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