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Your Lordship: Please give us an untouched pure physics ffb, not that consumer thing.

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by Eddy Baldon, Jan 2, 2017.

  1. Eddy Baldon

    Eddy Baldon Gamer

    Yes, Andrew corrected it in his following posting. Mea culpa.

    I am very excited to hear about.
     
  2. liakjim

    liakjim Alien

    Isn't already?

    Στάλθηκε από το m2 note μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk
     
    stefanoCasillo and LeDude83 like this.
  3. Andrew_WOT

    Andrew_WOT Alien

    Isn't that what iRacing folks did.
     
  4. Andrew_WOT

    Andrew_WOT Alien

    Some people drop lots of cash to improve simulation immersion. Triple screens, cockpits, transducers, motion platforms, DD wheels, wheel plates, shifters, E-brakes, button boxes, etc, etc, etc.
    If that does not interest you and you'd rather spend your hard earned money somewhere else, that's fine, just let others have their fun.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  5. Eddy Baldon

    Eddy Baldon Gamer

    Great idea Andrew. A DLC not for a new track or a new car. Here is my rhyme 2017:

    A DLC for FFB, sry for that irony.
     
    WallyM likes this.
  6. Daniel Perez

    Daniel Perez Hardcore Simmer

    Power steering systems are kind of complicated and simulating it for a sim, where the only information of what the car is doing comes from the steering wheel, makes no sense at all. In real life you have much more information of the car through your butt than from the steering wheel.
    I think that lower the FFB gain to have a lighter but informative FFB for cars with power steering is a much better approach than trying to simulate power steering, that would make the wheel dull and uninformative.
     
  7. cool, then it's done already. It's been done since day one. There is no "filter" whatsoever to remove.
     
  8. liquido

    liquido Gamer

    Well I'm sorry if I had said something stupid... I knew I had to shut up, but my big mouth played me again.

    For what I was reading, I seemed to be asking for that ... if that unfiltered FFB is already part of Assetto Corsa ... a matter settled?
     
  9. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

    I'm not quite sure (yet) what they are after, but what I do know is that there is quite some talk among DD wheel owners (mainly OSW with the Mige servo) about some mystery "rubber-band" effect in the FFB which apparently is only (or mainly?) present in Assetto Corsa, but not R3E, AMS or iRacing.
    Maybe that is what he is after.
     
  10. PLebre

    PLebre Hardcore Simmer

    Maybe those hardware manufacturer should work on an interface to work also with AC.
     
    LeDude83 likes this.
  11. tlsmikey

    tlsmikey Simracer

    To the OP, did you adjust the FF_SKIP_STEPS value to 0 to get the full FFB updates? Made a big difference for me from the stock value of 1 on my T500. I find this change alone brought it fairly close to what i feel in AMS which is what I would consider the best FFB at the moment.
     
  12. Znam Neznam

    Znam Neznam Hardcore Simmer

    Yeah I believe that's what happened.

    My sub on iRacing expired but I recall that the osw forum topic is huge on iRacing. Someone sent iRacing their own OSW wheel.

    LOl maybe someone living close Stefano borrows their OSW wheel, maybe Stefano could look into but I imagine he has other things to work on.

    Once my G27 dies I am jumping on the OSW crew bandwagon lol.
     
  13. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

    Well, that's one of the problems. There is no "hardware manufacturer" for the OSW. Some of the configs you can have:
    - Argon/small Mige (that's the original setup)
    - Argon/big Mige
    - Argon/Lenze MCS12
    - Argon/Lenze MCS09
    - Argon/Kollmorgen AKM52G
    - Argon/Kollmorgen AKM53G
    - Argon/Kollmorgen AKM54G
    - IONICube/small Mige

    - SimuCUBE/small Mige


    And that's only (the commonly used) hardware. Then you got several setup and tuning values in Granite (the drive setup tool) and MMos (the FFB firmware).
    With the SimuCUBE, things got a bit better, since more out-of-the-box sets are delivered and thus things are a bit more defined.
    Also, Granite Devices (the manufacturer of the Argon and Ioni servo drives) are putting some effort into creating an alternative firmware that should make things easier.
    Also there are plans to create an "OSWCommander", which is somewhat similar to the SimCommander software that SimXperience provides (and bypassing direct input afaik), but at least at the moment it seems like the efforts there stalled.
    On the other hand I've read that there is interest by SimXperience to provide support for OSW in the SimCommander software, despite it being a competition for the AccuForce.
    Once everything is working and set up correctly, I would be happy to give them my wheel for a month or so if that would improve things, but I don't know if that would really be the way to go and I don't know if it would help that much.

    In the end there will always be the problem with the varying hardware and the huge tuning functionality that could make things worse.
     
  14. Andrew_WOT

    Andrew_WOT Alien

    I disagree that variety of DD wheels flavors (you forgot Accuforce and Leo Bodnar System)), should necessarily complicate FFB tuning for all them.
    They all share same characteristics, instant speed, high velocity, and higher linear torque throughout the curve, which creates certain problems if FFB is more catered for conventional belt or gear driven wheels.

    One of them is oscillation as they react very quickly which produces overcompensated correction, gyro was dealing almost fine with it but makes wheel too "lazy", esp. after last release, I don't think anyone is using it anymore. Perhaps if we can make it adjustable that can be dealt with.
    Another problem is sometimes violent snap back oversteer when tires gaining traction back. Again, making SAT adjustable perhaps will help.
    We also lost damper settings from UI, which for DD owners is a step backward as these speedy wheels do need more dampening. Thankfully it's still in ini file.

    And I don't think that these changes are for DD owners only as I am sure it will help Fanatec, TM, and Logitech folks fine tune FFB to their liking as well.
    DD or not, FFB is the same, it's just with DD you see everything under microscope, some things that can get unnoticed on G27 get exaggerated on DD. This is why I think as in recording studio you should use the most resolving equipment to get all mix nuances right.

    There are two extremes in having FFB tuneable, one is overkill like PCars (I doubt even their devs understand all the settings) and AC which is perhaps on the other end of the scale.
    While we all appreciate simplicity and for most parts AC FFB works fine out of the box, I think we all can benefit from some extra tuning knobs.
    Dirt Rally while not the role model in physics and FFB department, perhaps got the number of tuning options right, including adjustable Soft Lock.

    upload_2017-1-3_14-51-24.png

    AC FFB is excellent, the most immersive out of all sims I've used including AMS and iRacing, but as with everything there is always some room for improvement. And IMHO DD wheel is just a better tool to help get there.
     
  15. Berniyh

    Berniyh Alien

    Nope, I didn't. It's just that most AccuForce owners will most likely use SimCommander, which changes things and regarding the SimSteering, it's just such a rarity, especially amongst AC racers that I didn't mention it explicitly.
     
  16. Stereo

    Stereo Alien

    As far as I know the FFB spec itself doesn't have this but it seems like as a hypothetical solution, you'd want to transmit a 'centering spring' with 2 values - one saying where the center is, one how strong the spring is. Then if the wheel speed is high enough that it's overshooting between FFB signals (3ms in AC with skip_step=0), it can drop the force being applied on its own.

    I suppose as a starting point within SimCommander or other 3rd party FFB gobetweens you could use the slip angle to estimate the "center" but really you'd want it to be part of the game's data output since caster, kpi, etc. affect it. But just the simple solution might be enough that if you let go of the wheel it can behave approximately right.

    Or even simpler from a data perspective, transmit the current force and the local gradient, so if the wheel starts to rotate it'll be able to use that slope to guess forces at nearby angles.
     
  17. Andrew_WOT

    Andrew_WOT Alien

    From what I've read most AF owners actually prefer raw AC FFB over SC based, it is that good. :)
     
    Berniyh likes this.
  18. Dean Ogurek

    Dean Ogurek Alien

    I recently read that the OSW-support in SimCommander is not going to happen unfortunately - at least not anytime soon; it could make a big difference with some titles but, AC-FFB would not necessarily benefit significantly IMO. There are some other benefits to SC4 such as blended FFB effects and other tuning options but, AC's telemetry does not play well with SimCommander so it's own FFB would be of little, if any benefit aside from engine-Vibes and general easy-access tuning features.

    The biggest benefit would be for SC4-Foundation FFB (Telemetry-based FFB) with titles that have poor game-FFB when using an OSW system; Dirt Rally, Pcars, R3E, and other Racing titles FFB could be transformed into something much better.

    At this point, it makes sense to wait and see what Granite Devices is able to achieve with their new Firmware that is going to replace MMos if I understand correctly.
     
    Andrew_WOT likes this.
  19. Dean Ogurek

    Dean Ogurek Alien

    I don't know if that's accurate; I know there have been quite a few AF users in the Owner's Club forums that want to use SC4 Foundation FFB with AC but, there is something in the game's telemetry that causes the FFB to decay over time. It's a strange issue that SimXperience can't solve without Kunos input and it doesn't seem to affect all PC's the same way judging from user-reports. I'm sure SimXperience would be happy to send Kunos an AccuForce to use as they did with other developers if they are open to that. R3E FFB improved "Biggly":D after S3 created a custom FFB-profile for the AF.

    While it would be great to have the alternate option (SC4) to produce FFB in AC using the AccuForce (& OSW for that matter), the game FFB is very, very good. I would love to be able to experiment with SC4-FFB and add engine-vibes and tweak SAT, bumps and more but, those benefits are not game-changers at this point either. I have used SC4-FFB with rF2 and iRacing and liked it a lot, better than iRacing-game FFB actually.
     
    Berniyh and Andrew_WOT like this.
  20. Daniel Perez

    Daniel Perez Hardcore Simmer

    What did the last release changed regarding gyro? I have not noticed any difference since it was implemented. I think it works really well and avoid all the oscillations even with no damping at all and very high FFB. It is more pronounced for some cars than for others but it could be because it is like this for the real car.
    In my "so weird" simsteering I use too a little bit of inertia and damping at the driver to calm the over reacting behavior and the wheel to me is totally stable and very realistic without losing any detail.
    Maybe for OSWs is different and they just have to be tuned properly, difficult task anyway with so many parameters.


    Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk
     
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