rear slip feel

I'll be able to post them later, but I haven't done anything "big". AFAIK I don't even use LUT. Mostly based setup on Michael Hornbuckle post about setuping T300, you can look up for that guide, I tweaked it just tiny bit though. You could post your settings at first. But really you should be able to feel oversteer by most settings, unless you really mess them up. Possibly you are just too new to this and haven't developed senses.

You really feel when rear end starts going larger radius than front end, as opposed to normal cornering, when rear end drives slightly smaller radius, the moment rear end will start going out of the trajectory you just have your steering reacting and changing direction, because car creates torque which is opposite direction to torque from self aligning of front wheels, and usually quite big that oversteering torque is....

As for wheels going light, perhaps it is believable when self aligning torque on front wheels and torque around front axis because of oversteer are similar strengths for a short time (but opposite directions, naturally). I don't remember feeling that a lot in AC. I rember having that lightness feeling while I was experimenting with XJ13, very vividly on the T2 of Nurburgring, but at the time I had enhanced understeer effect enabled, so it wasn't completely pure physics, the feel of neutral drift (when all four wheels slide) just got enhanced I guess. I thought it was very immersive though.

Car will also visually give out that it is rotating around, tires sound also tell how badly they are suffering. After driving a lot you should even be able to guess if car is going to oversteer and how much.

 

Drifting feel like how it feel in a car, but 10 times more forgiving. Even if you mess up, the car hold instead of spinning out. You can easily feel the slide on default setting.

You just need to get used to the timing as the car just don't keep rotating & lose speed. Steer back at that specific timing when it goes back on track. The rear end is very reactive as soon as you turn the steering. That's why the car doesn't plow straight when you drive wrong.

 

LUT turned my T500 into a G27, I think it only really works with gear drive wheels... or atleast not with T500, it goes lumpy.

It's alright for some then, I couldn't drift in AC even if my life depended on it.

 

Well I wouldn't be sure to say so. But if we would speculate about times and percents... I would pull out of nowhere that it is something like 1.2-1.1 times, about 83-90 percents of true handling, and as you say more likely to the easy side for lots of cars (not necessary though), just pure thought by a random guy. However Aris mentioned similar percentage in Racedepartments Laguna Seca bonus pack talk and drive and it is logical. I would guess that it is down to hardware limitations, software limitations, and mostly - probably due to difficulties of finding out about some very funky parameters which has a lot of impact on car behavior. IMO no reason to complain and exaggerate.

GT40 used to be very very difficult, so many people complained, IMO it was wrong to complain... I am guilty about complaining about 250GTO though, but I think it was good feedback, because car really lacked pace (felt awesome, but more like 250TR I would have expected to feel). So to say that cars are always too easy is not correct statement at all.

 

I just crash. It's the lazy solution

 

It's not a complain, It's a workaround.

Random video with a car on ice.

 

I disagree. That might be the case for you, but I do know what I'm reacting too, and I know I'm often correcting before I see any visual cues. If you're calling bollocks, call it on the absurd idea that everyone feels and uses FFB the same. Some people are more sensitive and attune to certain things than others, just like about everything in life when it comes to sensory perception. Two people, same hardware, same settings, and one will tell you the FFB is great, while the other complains of no feel.

 

Depends on a car and tires. Some can be driven with greater slip angles, and you won't have to have snake reflexes, but there are cars which has to be steered into a slide almost before they slide, and countersteered mad quickly as well.

Hey OP, I have a question for you. How do you hold steering wheel when you drive near the point when car could snap into oversteer, do you sqeeze it firmly, or hold it a bit loose ?

 

There are times when cars are difficult to drive, and then there are times when they just feel plain wrong. The jury might be out with respect to the GT40 (although I personally feel that the updated version feels a lot more like I would expect the car to drive), but the release version of the 250 GTO did not feel right to me at all. It wobbled around all over the place, and felt about as stable as an elephant on a scooter with a bent wheel. The revised version is much better.

 

I don't know what bollocks means, but I do know that I disagree with your points.

1st, one must understand what a reflex action is, to understand what happens when an experienced driver reacts to oversteer.

A reflex, or reflex action, is an involuntary and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus. ... The reflex is then an automatic response to a stimulus that does not receive or need conscious thought.

2nd, one doesn't feel the wheel go lighter because,... "The moment you feel lighter ffb case is already lost because both front and rear are above limit",... if the front and rear where both at the limit, there would be no oversteer. Plus, the front does NOT have to be at the limit for the rears to be at or over the limit.

3rd, one does apply opposite lock to the wheel, just because you drove over a bump. But because of the reflex reaction or even conscious reaction to the change in FFB,... IF the car goes into oversteer.

4th, it doesn't matter why, "rear slides before front", FFB will telegraph this.

Now I don't doubt that there are people here who don't drive by the feel of FFB from the wheel, but that doesn't mean others do not drive by FFB.

PS: For those here who are actually "on the wheel" here, I really like how GAMMA in Assetto Corsa\cfg\ff_post_process.ini, helps with the feel.
Started at .75, and am now up to VALUE=0.65

 

It's not instantaneous thou, subconscious thoughts are still thoughts, they need that 150+ms too.
If you don't believe me, open up a replay and try to find something you reacted to without thinking about it.

Not really no, take any car with high power to downforce/weight ratio, it will understeer when coasting through turn, then you punch the gas and often both front and rear go over the limit at the same time. (ps: but yeah ffb can go both lighter and harder, Haiden mentioned lighter, hence my statement)

You do realize that when climbing a kerb if you "react" to ffb change it means that the car already received additional loads that cause the oversteer and is in bad shape already? Preemptive action is faster (laptime wise), and it may look like instantaneous reflex if done subconsciously.

But it's slow and not reliable, that's the problem. OP wants an effect that describes what is happening to the rear traction directly in FFB while in reality feedback works indirectly by changing the slip angle on front wheels which happens from car rotation induced by loss of rear traction. If for example front was close to limit, we may not feel anything because slip angle is around its pneumatic trail limit (MZ max) and there is little change in aligning torque over several degrees of slip. And it's slow because that car rotation that is required for ffb to do anything, is already visible plainly.

(And to @Haiden773 's reply to my post)

True, and actually until recently i thought i was driving off FFB mostly. But out of curiosity I tested around (including the blind test that i encouraged you to do) and it turned out that hand "muscle memory" can't do much without visual clues. And while it may be that somebody is driving off his FFB, i'd argue that the quality of information (even leaving feeling or hardware behind - just talking about software) is much better on the visual side compared to FFB (even a tenth of a degree is already several pixels long movement on screen).


Returning to topic at hand, i'm trying to argue that while it may seem solid, information coming from ffb is neither pure (brain still needs a lot of visual clues which come with practice) nor practical (cases where ffb won't be fast enough or physically won't work). Us experianced simraces may overvalue the ffb because it feels like it's doing work - but since it's the only physical connection, we may be biased toward it while in reality it's a combination of memory visuals and audio clues.
I just don't want to send OP on a blind chase for some mythical FFB that some of us seem to have, while it's just down to practice ffb or not.

 

Nao,... we can agree to disagree.

But my finale take is, my chair does not move when the car moves, so the ONLY info on what is happening to the car is, visual, plus the only physical feed back, is through FFB from the wheel.

As those are the only two feedback processes available to me, and since we are missing so much compared to RL, I am going to utilise both of them to the fullest.

Mind you, if one never learns to utilise FFB in conjunction with visual, then it doesn't matter how good or bad FFB it is.

This is a simulator after all.

BMW was renowned for its feel through the steering, when North American cars went with total isolation, guess who won that debate ?

 

I agree that oversteer shouldn't be totaly up to FFB by driver. But does car rotatation caused by the slip of rear wheels affect front slip angles and is it what we feel through ffb when oversteering ? I thought that it is entirely new whole axis torque by the rotation of rear end which gives the steer output as fronts doesn't loose grip. Maybe oversteer doesn't have much effect for front slip angles if you don't force it from occuring and let it slide a bit if it wants, thats how I drive at least, IDK how it is at the very first moment of oversteer though. Maybe at the very first moment you indeed are forcing front a bit as rears slip before you feel that your input and car rotation doesn't match, and just then you realise to let front wheels align into a slide with some bonus steer input to compensate all that delay. If thats so, then it is totaly obvious that main feedback is knowing how you are steering the car and having a great attention to whole picture to understand that car is always matching the steer input.

I quickly drove this beauty, do I understand it correctly ? I mean that if you let rear step out a bit freely, then it shouldn't affect front slip angles a lot, because steering system just steers into a slide due to tire SAT as wheels should want to stay at their place as rear rotates around front axis creating sorta whole chassis SAT, assuming that fronts has grip. And if you forcing wheel to stay at their steer angle then you are messing up instantly, because you are then adding more to whole chassis rotation (sometimes it helps to get quicker around the corners though ).

 

So you drove a car around blindfolded, and then decided the FFB isn't effective without visual cues?

 

@LATE4APEX Yeah idk, maybe im just driving much more by eyesight recently (dropped fov which gave quite a bit of a boost to laptimes). Anyways this would be a good topic with IRL with hardware in hand ... and beer in another .

@mantasisg 2
Rear does not rotate around front axis, it rotates around center of mass, with front dipping into the turn. So initial miliseconds will see (minimal) reduction for SAT due to front wheels physically moving toward center, then as the rear looses more grip whole car will start to get away to the outside, returning front SAT to previous levels, and then more with increasing car slide angle till it's limit.

The SAT change induced by car rotation is the same as the sat that tries to center the wheel in turn normally, cant distinguish one from another. If anything it would be gyroscopic forces (not simulated) that want the wheels to keep their direction (with a force) and driver himself would likely intuitively turn the wheel toward direction of travel (as a muscle memory) negating the effect of car rotation.

Thinking about it more... the movement of the car and corresponding dynamic weight transfer is likely to have much more impact on FFB than any slip angle change... It's likely not the slide (the slip angle changes) that is felt in FFB, but the thing behind the oversteer itself (which will always come with some change in load distribution). Weather it's kerb or throttle, track camber change, dampers or bumpstops working, they all dictate loads on wheels, and whenever something changes on the rear there is corresponding change at the front - and we feel it in FFB. The issue is it's all FFB rumble until we see that car is sliding away, then we interpret it as a reason of oversteer, and use this knowleage next time it happens, which isn't too consistent.
And with that said, im not going forward XD loads are much more complicated than some top down angles

 

Sounds stupid yeah, but "yeah exactly" , nothing actaully wrong with that statement... just how else you'd try to look into complex subconscious process (that by definition is out of reach) than probing each individual element separately.

I did many tests, just (idk word in english, google can't help lol) "half closing" eyes so that i could not see clearly did make interpreting ffb confusing... And down to actual science, skid pad, special setup, some laps testing to know how to get into oversteer etc. and then trying to guess in what phase car is soley based on ffb.
You'd be surprised how little (at least standard consumer wheel) actually tells you when you try to process it raw.

ps: to not sound totally crazy, that was back when ffb LUT table was released, and i wanted to actually test theories about building LUT files, and quantify the results.

 

Here's my test... When I first started sim racing, I wasn't very good at catching slides. Now, years later, I often catch them with so little effort I surprise myself sometimes. Granted, the range of improvement is due to simple practice and experience, and the fact that my mistakes aren't as big/past threshold as they used to be. But here's the thing (and, personally, all the testing I need)... When I'm in a sim with crappy FFB, I can't catch a slide to save my life. When PCars2 came out, I couldn't catch a slide, because my only indication of the rear slipping was the visual rotation of the car, which, for me at least, came way too late to do anything about it. As soon as I got the FFB in PCars2 sorted out to the point that I had decent slip feel, I was able to catch slides again. In any sim I drive, if I turn off the FFB, I'm no longer able to feel a slide coming on and won't catch it, because by the time I see the rotation in my FOV, it's gone too far. In fact, when watching replays, I can often see the shimmy where I caught it, but can also see that the amount of rotation experienced was so minor that there wouldn't have been much of a visual cue.

Now, that said, it's totally possible that both FFB and visual cues are working together when I catch a slide, but... for me, FFB is an absolutely critical piece of that puzzle. I've driven without sound when testing FFB, so the tire squeal isn't an available indicator. As for driving blind, personally, I wouldn't find that test to be very informative, because in addition to being able to see the rotation of the car, we're also subconsciously using speed perception to make decisions. Blindfolded, I would have no idea how fast I'm going, and that would affect my ability to react appropriately to the condition I'm experiencing.

 

I don't understand how anyone is using audio to judge the limit of grip in AC, unless they managed to set the onset of tyre squeal to the exact point each car loses traction. From what I remember it is just a single pitch sound that starts happening at which ever % you choose. Do people actually fine tune it for every car they drive or does it work in a different way?

 

Yep, agreed, for me, its why eliminate additional "feedback" while driving.

I've raced IRL, small formula cars, and racing Karts, in the rain on slicks, and trust me, in both cases, having the feed back from the wheel is irreplaceable.

Cars rotate on the front axel when they are oversteering, this is transmitted through the steering.

And as has been noted, I also use the curbs on both the inside and out side of the corner to upset the car to aid turn in, I can't imagine doing that without the feedback from the wheel, to transmit both the irregular road surface, and the car then slightly oversteering into the corner.

And also when late braking into a corner to achieve the same result.

I don't think Kimi bought a servo feedback wheel system, if he wasn't going to use it.

If its available, use it, one can only benefit.

 

This is good topic.

I don't know about car rotating around it's CoG when oversteering perhaps when it is oversteering/spinningout @Nao

To me it looks like if all cars power oversteer in a very similar fashion, would it be E30 or 911.

It could be that it starts spinning around CoG insantly if oversteer is very violent, I don't know. Sometimes there is a point when steering into a slide actually makes car rotate even more, then it is definitely rotating around CoG.