Programming off track penalties - a scenario based analysis of 6 methods

At the bottom of the post we find out which system offers the most accurate penalties. This post goes through 7 different scenarios of when a racer is off track throughout the race. I've collected the following penalty checking options from another thread and used them to analyze and see which one is best.

TLDR: Kunos please use Wally's system with 2 modifications, and we'll have an almost perfect penalty system.



Penalty checking options:

1. Exceeding 3 off tracks = Drive through penalty
2. Three zones of penalty. The white zone, orange and the red zone depending on corner apex, outside, or zones where cutting is obviously to gain time advantage.
3. Iracing type. User initiated throttle cut with wheels off track. (if I misunderstood this please run your corrected version through the 7 scenarios and report )
4. Wally’s corner entry/exit speed based penalties. More than 3 warnings and you get a penalty. (See bottom of post to see how this method works)
5. Penalties when 2 or 4 wheels off track and position gained
6. Penalties based on time gained (requires complex algorithms)​

Scenario check for the above options (bolded answer fits ideal answer)

• a. T1 at the start, you’re forced off the track and had to cut the apex due to a crash, you gained positions because crashed cars which were ahead of you are now behind you. Ideally you would not get a penalty

1a. You’ll get an off track recorded but no penalty yet
2a. You’ll get a penalty because you cut the track
3a. You’ll get a slow down penalty
4a. You’ll get a warning
5a. You’ll get a penalty
6a. You haven’t set a lap time so nothing happens​

• b. Deliberate cutting of apexes to gain advantage in time but not position later on lap 1 with only 2 tires off. Ideally you’d get a warning

1b. You now have 2 off track but no penalties yet
2b. You’ll get a penalty
3b. You’ll get a penalty to slow down
4b. You’ll get a second warning
5b. You get nothing since you didn’t get position
6b. You’re on lap one with no time set, so nothing happens​

• c. Running wide on the outside of a turn due to driver error on lap 2. Ideally nothing happens

1c. You’re now at 3 off tracks and you get a penalty
2c. Nothing happens because you’re in the safe zone for being off track
3c. You’ll get a penalty to slow down
4c. You’ll have the 3rd warning
5c Nothing happens because you didn’t gain time or position
6c You have gained time from lap 1, does this count as a penalty? Or if you cross check with fastest lap (by you? By the WR holder?) then no penalty​

• d. Lap 3. Someone runs into the back of you and you’re forced off track but not through an apex, slight time lost. Ideally nothing happens.

1d. You’re now at 4 off tracks and you get a penalty
2d. Assuming you ran wide, nothing happens
3d. You get a penalty to slow down
4d. Nothing happens
5d. No positions gained, nothing happens
6d. You haven’t changed position, nothing happens​

• e. 4th lap. You lock up the brakes under pressure and had to cut the corner through the apex, but you yield the position to the car behind you afterwards. Ideally nothing happens

1e. You’re now at 5 off tracks and you get a really long penalty, sucks to be you
2e. You cut through the apex, you’ll get a penalty
3e. You get a slow down penalty
4e. 4th off track and you get a penalty because you didn’t slow down through the cut apex
5e. No positions gained, nothing happens
6e. No time gained vs your best lap or the WR lap (as if you’re that fast anyway?!) nothing happens​

• f. Deliberately cutting of apex to gain time but not position with 2 tires off. Ideally you get a penalty because it’s not your first time.

1f. You’re probably disqualified by now, 6th off track
2f. You will get a penalty because you cut the apex
3f. You get another slow down penalty (wow the first time this penalty actually makes sense)
4f. You get another penalty5f. Didn’t gain position, no penalty again
6f. You gained time vs your last lap, but say your tires are worn and you actually don’t set a new PB in this sector, you might escape penalty, mmmm​

• g. Last lap, Deliberately cutting of apex to gain an advantage in time and position with all 4 tires off for the win. Ideally you’d get a penalty

1g. You’re definitely thrown the books now, 7th penalty
2g. Another penalty because of apex cut
3g. You get another slow down penalty
4g. Another penalty
5g. Finally you get a penalty that you deserved
6g. Assuming you set a PB in this sector or lap, maybe you’ll get a penalty, but if you were slower in the lap earlier, maybe you won’t. If your time is compared to WR, then you’ll never get a penalty​

• Through the 7 scenarios, our score stands at:

Exceeding 3 off tracks = Drive through penalty 4
Three zones of penalty. The white zone, orange and the red zone 4
Iracing type. User initiated throttle cut with wheels off track 2
Wally’s corner entry/exit speed based penalties. 5
Penalties when 2 or 4 wheels off track and position gained 4
Penalties based on time gained (requires complex algorithms) 2​

Conclusion​

So Wally’s off track algorithm was the best. What did it get wrong though?

Running wide on the outside of a turn due to driver error on lap 2 – This is fixable by defining the outside of the corner, either with programming via AI line or by defining track segments in the kn5 file.

4th lap. You lock up the brakes under pressure and had to cut the corner through the apex, but you yield the position to the car behind you afterwards. – This is fixable by giving a warning to the driver to give up a position on track before handing out penalties.



Now there are definitely other scenarios which could happen, and the sequence of events could change the outcome somewhat since some of the penalties are accumulative. As we can see however, Wally’s method requires no extra programming or track modification and it already scored the highest. With some slight modifications it can almost be perfected.



Please only reply to this thread if you have meaningful and constructive comments on programming a way for AC to recognize and penalize drivers without having it analyze human emotions and motives. The computer doesn't KNOW if an action is deliberate, it can only look at certain things on the track and make a yes/no decision.

If you have another method of analyzing penalties, it would be nice if you could go through the same 7 scenarios and see what results you get.


Wally's penalty system:
[FineTuning]
; The maximum time cut (in seconds) to trigger a warning. Default 1.3.
; If you make this too long, off-track accidents may trigger cut warnings.
MAX_CUT_TIME=1.3
; The minimum ratio of speed at leaving the track to speed at re-entering the track that will trigger a warning. Default 0.9.
; A speed ratio under this means that the car has slowed, and negated any advantage gained, and a warning won't be triggered.
; 0.9 means the car is re-entering the track at 90% of the speed at which it left it.
; A value < 1 means the car has slowed during the cut; a value > 1 means the car has sped up.
MIN_SLOW_DOWN_RATIO=0.9
; If the track re-entry speed is > this fraction of the car's max speed, a cut triggers a warning even if it takes longer
; than MAX_CUT_TIME seconds.
MAX_SPEED_RATIO_FOR_CUT=0.6

 

I believe that with the second method (if i understood it correctly in the other thread), the penalties for cutting the apex in the orange zone are given only with x cut in y lap (where x & y are variabile settings), so at point b the penalty is not given at the first cut, but after x number of times in the last y number of laps.
The problem at the point E still remains, that's a red zone i assume; that scenario (with this method) will be solved only using a delta with previous/next car in a race to find out if the driver has taked advantage or not from the cut (and by deleting lap in hotlap/qualify of course).

Sorry if i misunderstood things (and for my crappy english as well)

 

So for method 2, you might get 1 more score for point a, which brings it up to 5 and a tie with Wally's method. Which means both methods could be used with the same correction required to get them up to 100%. The only difference is that all the tracks will need to have zones programmed in for this method to work, while @WallyM method require no changes on the track kn5, thus easier to implement.

Having delta is very problematic because, what if someone slows down or have a bad lap? Then you'll be deemed to have gained an advantage even if you didn't. Or if you were driving fast, messed up earlier in the lap but cut a corner later in the lap, then your total delta is zero but you still cut a corner.

 

The one I suggested on twitter seems to score ok in your scenarios, though I left the actual metrics for warnings/penalties out since I haven't tested it with an app. So I'm gonna say yes to most, no to 'e' (where it might penalize & shouldn't)

1) calculate player's adjusted speed: length of track times number of AI segments crossed per second. For example if you go 0.01 of the way round the track in 1 second on a 2.5km track, your adjusted speed is 25m/s (90km/h)
2) calculate AI's optimum speed in your car, over the same interval: clearly this can be done since the AI knows when it should brake. So for example it comes up with 60km/h.
3) If your speed exceeds AI's by too much for too long, allow a penalty. Vague cause I don't know how accurate the AI predictions are or how much different lines will affect it. Of course, it will be combined with other cut detection - if you're driving fast inside the track limits, allow it. If you're driving slow outside the track limits, allow that too.
It would look something like: 5%+ too fast over 1 second, give a warning. 5%+ over several seconds (meaning multiple tenths gained in a lap), slow-down penalty. 10%+ too fast, drive-through. To actually calibrate I'd run some hotlaps, some early/late apexes, all running inside track boundaries, and see what it spits out.

This attacks the problem in two ways. First, of course, in order to gain a useful time advantage, you would be driving faster than the AI can, which can be measured. Second, if you make an off-track excursion to the inside of a corner, your rate of progress around the track will increase because you're driving a shorter circuit. If you cut Monza's first chicane, even at a similar speed to what you'd take through the chicane, you're making the track about 30% shorter over that period, your adjusted speed will be 30% higher.

The main flaw I see is that in very high speed corners, where your car can't accelerate to its potential, point (2) will always indicate you're going slower than you could be. Maybe there's a way to work in the car's peak acceleration to work out how fast it could be going by that point, given how much it slowed at the most recent corner. Fortunately, that kind of corner being open to significant cutting is rare. This is the point where it fails scenario 'e' too - there's no way to detect a player "giving back" time since they're always going slow on straights.

 

Yea, for example, there is no reason for any penalty or warning whatsoever if you say went off on the straight at Monza onto the grass, as there is no way to gain any advantage, so those "zones" should be just null. The zones would vary depending on the track, but using Monza as a chief example, the areas near the 3 chicanes would need to be cut "zones". A big general one covering most of the run off probably for more severe penalties (depending on player actions - is he full throttle etc?), then a smaller one nearer the apexes to dish out different, lesser penalties.

 

While what you said would work, it would require the zones be defined on all tracks, which means new ways of defining track limits in the kn5. I still maintain that Wally's method plus the two fixes requires less programming and less work to get the same results. It's not that your idea is wrong, it just requires more work to do which is probably why Kunos have stalled on implementing penalies in the first place.

 

Stefano Casillo‏@KunosStefano
so, removed the penalties from qualify/practice and so on, now working on a slow down system with more flexibility for races.

4:01 AM - 30 Dec 2014 (12:04 UK Time)

===

I really wish Stefano would actually post on here, so the conversations may take a breather. I won't open that can o'worms again though.

Fingers crossed he's read these posts and is implementing something like the above. Good to know it's finally being taken seriously though!

 

Whe've been using Wally's app in quite a few league raceswith 24 drivers. There has been no issues at all. Yes you might be given a penalty for something fairly innocuous but that's why you get 3 chances.

I also don't know why people are talking about penalties for 2 wheels off track when this is legal.

 

yesss thank you stefano!!! i assume he means penalties disabled but then laps disallowed if off track detected for qualifying/hotlap mode.

 

Thanks for the detailed response. Your idea does work. However I see a couple of problems not addressed.

1. It needs to rely on AI's speed. Which as we all know is rather inconsistent, it's slow into hairpins, slow at corners like Eau Rouge, doesn't brake hard enough on downhills and brakes too early on uphills.
2. Kunos will need to run the AI on each track config, for every single car, and have a table to compare user's time to that table. Not really practical. What about mod cars and tracks?
3. What if you're slower on one corner, then you cut the next one, your time delta might appear to be the same but you've actually cut the track.

 

On point 1, I agree, but I'm optimistically assuming the AI can drive as fast as an alien maybe someday. Certainly the system will work better on cars/tracks that have 'good' AI.
With 2, I don't really know enough how the AI works to speculate. It's 'user friendly' in a way that inclines me to believe the system is pretty smart about predicting this sort of thing.
For point 3, I'd probably accumulate 'advantage' with some sort of exponential decay and ignore disadvantage. Just glancing at Monza's sections.ini, Variante della Roggia is 0.361 to 0.388 so maybe tune the decay to look at performance over the last 5% of the track. If you do a little better than expected, it's forgotten by the time you get to the second Lesmo unless you're given an actual penalty.

 

I think for qualifying its very simple just disallow any lap that exceeds the tyre limits set in the server, for racing using Wally's method has been working well for us. At times its a bit soft but this is just by how the track boundaries are set so not much can be done. Taking it a little further incorporating delta gain over the sector or positions gained vs cars that are still moving at normal speeds would be about all thats needed. For a huge cut like no lift cuts over chicanes like Monza and Imola a direct stop go penalty should be given these could be done by getting a gain of more then 1 second over a clean PB delta time.

 

I think the iRacing system about off tracks, cut corner and flags is very useful. Something similar would be enough.

I would love help with python code but I just started to learn. Good luck.

 

This is good, more people need to see this.

 

My only question is this :
How do you intend to bring this to the attention of the developers if they rarely read their own forum ? Having great ideas or a perfect solution are wonderful things - but they need to be presented to the people who can actually make it a reality.
It seems totally obvious to most intelligent people that the ideas presented here would save some amount of initial thinking & analysis at least. It's useful for a developer to let their customers discuss new ideas because they can then distil the solution from the best ideas available or evolve a better solution using the discussion as a starting point.
So....
Are Kunos reading this thread ?

 

Please tweet them about this, i did but it seemed to have been ignored. I only did this to save them some thinking time, since all I've heard so far is how difficult it is to come up with a system that is feasible to program in.

 

What me ? er... sorry, I don't do tw4tter.

Anyone else wanna volunteer ? Now I look like a rite douchebag.

 

They already know it:

https://twitter.com/KunosStefano/status/549477189071011840
https://twitter.com/KunosStefano/status/549898075662061568
https://twitter.com/KunosStefano/status/549928204320792578

Interesting thread here:
http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?threads/progressive-system-penalty.19149/

 

I think from a keeping things as simple as possible perspective (minimal code changes) adopting Wallys ruleset is the way to go.

One thing I haven't seen discussed much is how the penalties pertain to each of the sessions and how to implement.

My thoughts:

Sessions:
1. Practice - Warnings alone are fine, no actual Penalty meted out. This session is just that, practice, when trying to find the limit (yours, the cars or the tracks), going over it helps you find where it is. And practice has no bearing on the outcome of the race.
2. Qualifying - Warning = lap disqualification. Qualifying can often come down to 100ths of a second, for first, second or any position. To allow someone 3 chances in one lap does not do justice to what qualification should be about.
3. Race - N Warnings = Penalty. Penalties should be cumulative. If in the time it takes you to take your penalty, you continue to abuse track boundaries, you should have to pay for it.

Configuration:
Number of Warnings to Trigger a Penalty should be configurable. Allows server/league admins to set their own rules that work for their servers/leagues.
Type of Penalty should be configurable - Drive Through, Time Penalty or ???. Allows server/league admins to set their own rules that work for their servers/leagues.
Time Penalty should be configurable - Allows server/league admins to set their own rules that work for their servers/leagues.

Implementation:
When a Drive Through Penalty is not taken or not able to be taken (occurs on the last lap), it becomes a Time Penalty.
Time Penalties are added to the total running time of the driver.
For Online Racing the rules must be configurable and enforced on the Server. Having configurable client side parameters will lead to 'inventive ways' around the rules. Configuring and enforcing on the Server virtually eliminates that (as long as the penalty engine is built in to the client ie. not an App).
For Offline Racing the default rules can be set up via an ini file (would prefer to see .config files used) and changed through a Session setup screen prior to entering a race.
The Clients 'Penalty Engine' would take it's configuration parameters (see above) from the Server for Online Racing or the Clients Session setup for Offline(it shouldn't care which).

Bash away