Racing Sim versus Car Collector / Hotlap Sim

Hi all,

This might be a controversial topic, so let's keep it polite. I'll apologize also for the length, but I'm trying to make a fair and balanced argument here.

Yesterday I saw the video chat featuring the SFT15-T settings and ERS options, and honestly the car looks amazing with this level of system details. Quite possible this is the most realistic chance we get to try a modern F1 car on our home systems. Not that the Red Pack wasn't already an instabuy with the Masterati and F138.

However, as Stefano explained it won't do "distance based" presets. So, unlike for a real race weekend in F1, we won't be able to predefine what ERS settings we use for which part of the track, where the additional torque would be most useful and where we want to harvest. Unlike a real driver, to get the most out of the ERS, we'll be busy managing four extra controls, which might or might not be mapable to the wheel.

I'd also assume the AI isn't able to define strategies for the ERS based on track layout, so to race versus the AI means they'll either get a "magic boost" everywhere, or they will not be able to defend against a human driver using full ERS wisely.

The new code, I assume, will be available to modders, but even if the ACFL16 team (who after all have a complete 3d and sound-set for the current F1 grid) implement it "tomorrow", we still end up with AI that doesn't know how to use this feature, and human drivers (multiplayer) where we can't rely (as in real life) on presets made by a clever crew of engineers.

In short, while impressive and surely amazing to try out, what is the actual "value" of the highly detailed SFT15-T implementation? I'm afraid most people will take it round their favorite tracks a few times to set a fastest lap, try a few races... and then either stop bothering to wrangle the ERS every other turn, or even stop using the car.

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And to me, that indicates the problem of direction I see in AC (as well as the other current gen sims, AC is not alone in this situation).

Because I'm sure Stefano spent a huge amount of working hours on this feature (he said something like "three weeks" in the video, unless I'm mistaken). Would it be unfair to assume that with the same amount of programming time, he might have been able to implement working DRS rules (1 second gap etc.)? Or to implement a logic that would see AI pit for fresh tires, maybe the option to force a mid-race pitstop? Features that would actually allow us to use a different (non-ERS) car and simulate a realistic sprint-style race?

The thing seems to be that AC needs DLC to remain financially viable. I get that. I wouldn't want to stop that. But with the way DLC and features are currently headed, we are not moving in a direction that bears the label "Your Racing Simulator". We have:

1) Lots of single cars from different eras, but rarely cars that actually competed against each other
2) Cars that are legendary and lovely, without any actual tracks they ever ran on
3) An AI that will wear out it's tires before it fuel runs out and NOT grab some new ones
4) DRS that the AI uses everywhere, all the time (unless you define zones, and even then all the time)
5) Pitstops that require mouseclicking before they start (artifical delay)
6) Race Starts that lock you into neutral gear (no jump starts)
7) Flag System that doesn't work half the time
8) No offline championship / point scoring for multiple races
9) No ability to assign setups for the AI (to even out Monza or similar tracks)
10) No ability to assign skill per AI car (so as to spread out a realistic grid)

In short, to actual have an offline race that looks like the real thing is currently almost impossible. In multiplayer - almost the same situation.

I'm really asking a honest question here: What is the idea where AC wants to go? If the team's resources are mostly tied (due to financial needs) in creating DLC and porting to console, are we realistically going to see race-centric features any time soon? Are there initiatives with modders to get them to create content matching the cars already present in stock-game? Could we maybe see some "Rivals" DLC that would focus on at least bringing one or two opponent cars into the title versus the ones we already have (example: Ferrari 330 P3 to play with Ford GT)?

Just putting this out here to raise a few thoughts. AC is still a brilliant "driving game" and occasionally, with a few "customized" mods (yes, that includes touching data.acd to create BoP), even delivers an acceptable racing experience. If you squint your eyes a bit and disable tire wear...

Curious on what the community thinks, or the boss himself.

 

Michael, as someone who's some semi-official tester/community contact here I expected a more mature reaction from you.

 

1) Lots of single cars from different eras, but rarely cars that actually competed against each other
Lots of cars in the same classes that can be raced together however, lots of opportunities to do single-make races with different liveries and lots of mods that complement the game.
2) Cars that are legendary and lovely, without any actual tracks they ever ran on
Tracks take a lot of work to implement, licencing and implementation are costly - you'll just have to be patient and wait if you want to see more laserscanned tracks of high quality. And there are many mods that complement the game.
3) An AI that will wear out it's tires before it fuel runs out and NOT grab some new ones
Never experienced that issue, file a bug report.
4) DRS that the AI uses everywhere, all the time (unless you define zones, and even then all the time)
Shouldn't be the case if DRS zones are defined, file a bug report.
5) Pitstops that require mouseclicking before they start (artifical delay)
True but they're working on it (afaik). And even with pit stop strategies, you'd still have to click stuff if you wanted to change it in the race.
6) Race Starts that lock you into neutral gear (no jump starts)
False starts are coming with 1.7.
7) Flag System that doesn't work half the time
While the simplified flag system in AC doesn't necessarily replicate real flag rules I've never seen it not working. The main sticking point may be the yellow flag but I'd assume we'll see an improvement at some point.
8) No offline championship / point scoring for multiple races
Offline championships do exist in the game and you can make some yourself by editing files, it's just not possible through the game launcher itself yet.
9) No ability to assign setups for the AI (to even out Monza or similar tracks)
Coming with 1.7.
10) No ability to assign skill per AI car (so as to spread out a realistic grid)
True, but with 1.7 the AI will apparently have a bit more variation. Wait and see.

 

To clarify:

3# It is confirmed that the AI doesn't pit for new tires. If they still have fuel left they will keep running on tires that are so bad they are almost spinning out.
4# If DRS zones are configured the AI uses the DRS every lap during the race, no matter the gap to the leader. Detection isn't implemented yet.

These are not bugs, these are confirmed "feature missing". I think DRS is being considered in the not so distant future.

Regards #1: Very few mods I see are actually complementing the in-game selection of vehicles (Mazda 787B is the only one that comes to mind, as opponent for the C9). Single-make races (a field full of Lotus 49 or Ferrari 312T) is for me not an accurate simulation of the actual racing environment of that particular car. Single-make grids also suffer from #10, where 24 cars might qualify inside a single second difference (requiring a lot of trial and error for the player to adjust AI strength). That's why I suggested to explore some "Rivals" feature or hook up some modders that they would actually flesh out what we have.

Thanks for the information on the other 1.7 features.

 

Whatever. Can't be arsed to have that argument, complain away. Just stay with coherent constructive criticism please. "Car Collector / Hotlap Sim" really had little to do with what you actually said.

 

Fair enough, I just tried but can't edit the title. Someone who can, feel free.

 

I think Michael is not in the mood for a tl;dr replay
You raised some valid questions, but most infos you can get in the FB thread. The last few days revealed some interesting news. I know it's a pita sometimes, but you have to go through there yourself Also the stream threads are very informative.

And yes, Kunos will implement race features over time.

 

Thanks Rainer.

I guess the TL;DR version of the top post (and that won't be answered in the FB Thread) is:

Was it worth to spent many man-hours on a single F1 car (instead of implementing a generic ERS setup like ACFL16) when that time could have been used to implement features actually facilitating proper sprint races (endurance being too far away for now). And is the decision where to spend that time indicative of the direction AC is going. That's the short of it, really.

 

I get the original posters points, however honestly a lot of the gripes are either fair points or biased to how the original poster thinks the game design should proceed.

Sometimes amongst all the hopes and dreams we have for the game we have to realise that we can enjoy the game more by focusing on what it does do well whilst requesting features we would like. While requesting it is important to remember that "easy to implement" usually isn't easy it just means you haven't thought it through enough to realise how hard it will be. Programs don't work by common sense they work on absolutes so literally you have to program all variables and think of weird scenarios that may mess up your easy idea.

Request away! That's no problem. There's even a section for it. At the same time though to think that the Lotus 49 should have competition whilst it would be great misses the point that it would be a huge amount of effort and licensing. Could it be done? Yes. Should it be done instead of something else? Not our call. We don't see the financials and other implications. Bear in mind for every person that calls for a lotus 49 competitor there is another person that calls for more GT3 cars to fill out the pack, or somebody who wants "that" road car, or somebody who hates open wheelers and wonders why they are even in the game.

Kunos try to please us their audience. In fact false starts are part of that but they can't do everything

 

Kunos' approach to a car is replicate it the best they can. Imagine conversations with Ferrari getting their next car license when kunos explain how they lovingly crafted their generic ERS system.

It's a lot of work. Yes. This work is what will get more money in the form of paid DLC which also funds 1.7 features.

Kunos will never win in this scenario.

User 1
2015 F1 car properly simulated < engine stall

User 2
Engine stall < 2015 F1 car properly simulated

User 3
Any car > open wheeler

User 4
Any car > GT3

User 5
Night > any DLC cars

And so on...

 

Ok no malice here

 

I personally like Kunos approach. It's kinda sim for everyone. It opens the world of simracing to new players, giving them the fix to look deeper into the other titles of the genre, while veteran sim racers can agree about the driving quality and the overall feel of the product. Getting their racing fix in their platform of choice then.
AC is very unique in that way.

 

That's why I suggested either a way to incentivize modders, or team up the most iconic cars at least with a "rival". For sure it's not realistic that all official licenses for a 1967 F1 season could ever be collected (just from an administrative point, financially even more so). Modders thankfully have more leeway there. And an official "rival" would at least enable some authentic duels.

Case in point where I think it's the wrong way: We get a Mercedes C9 and a Mazda 787B. One is 1990, the other 1991. Can't have a balanced race between them. Wager a bet the Porsche 962C we might eventually see will be an earlier year still.
Of course each of these cars is iconic because it won the 24hs of it's year. But as such we end up with a "trophy collection" and not a race grid.

Another option here might be the ability to "BoP" the cars. Like, make it easy to add/remove weight, add/remove horsepower. A bit like an "S1" stage configuration, done to user taste. Then cars of slightly different seasons or from different mod teams could be brought to race against each other.

 

Kunos has a contract with Ferrari, you don't know what is going on behind the scenes and if Ferrari wants Kunos to replicate the SF15-T as close as possible for them, then it has nothing to do with the game. So be thankful that Ferrari allowed them to use this car with all its electronic spaceship stuff for the game so that you can use it. They probably would have spent the time to work on it just for Ferrari and not for us.

 

I am sure that there are plenty of AC customers who can't wait to try out all of the complex systems in the Ferrari SF15T, and I don't see any reason why exciting races and/or championships could not be organised with this car on its own. Yes, most of us prefer multiple car types on the grid, but it is highly unlikely to happen here. I ran a P&G3 league for quite a while called the World Sprint Championship (WSC), and I loved to try and get as many cars in each group as possible. However, I have since come to realise that single make races can be just as (and perhaps even more) enjoyable than multi type races. You don't have to worry about spending huge amounts of time testing cars against each other, and you also get to see just how good you are in a particular car when compared to other drivers, since you are sitting in exactly the same machinery.

For the record, I have absolutely no desire to use all of the fancy techno gadgets that come as part of the Ferrari SF15T package. I can't be bothered messing about with stuff like DRS or KERS, or anything else that changes performance on the fly. I prefer to have my car set up from the start, and then drive it. I don't even mess about changing the turbo boost during races on cars like the BMW 1M S3 or Ruf CTR Yellowbird. I just set the boost pressure at the start, and live with it.

 

As far as not having authentic tracks to race on I would point you to all of the historical races that occur every year throughout the world. A bunch of great old racing cars driving on Modern tracks. So it is realistic to have these old cars on the new tracks. Of course that doesn't mean a few historical versions wouldn't be desired by a number of us too.

Sent from my LGLS990 using Tapatalk 2

 

And don't forget that Kunos has to start somewhere after all. If it weren't for the Alfa Romeo 155 V6 or Nissan GT-R they'd have to implement AWD for other upcoming AWD cars. If it weren't for the Lotus Exos 125 (or whichever car they implemented it for first) they'd have to implement DRS for other cars like the McLaren P1. If it weren't for the hypercars like the Ferrari LaFerrari and McLaren P1 they'd have to implement KERS and hybrid systems for other cars like the Porsche 918 and the F1's. Same thing now with the SF15-T, the upcoming LMP1-h cars (Toyota TS040 Hybrid, Porsche 919 Hybrid, Audi R18 e-tron quattro) will benefit from the time Stefano and team is spending on it now. And all the cars mentioned are important in automotive history and a great draw for the game. In no way is that wasted time.

Plus... Assetto Corsa isn't just a consumer product, and, as has been mentioned before, if Ferrari wants the SF15-T implemented in their own AC Pro version for their experience centres/museums (I'd assume that's the case, like with the F138 before it) then Kunos will do it, and can in exchange offer the car for the retail version of the simulator when licensing allows.

 

@christopher: Even in your scenario (single car race) it will only work satisfyingly online. And even against other humans, the actual "driving experience" - the handling of the systems - will not be the same as the real race car, because the real race car is preprogrammed. Humans online will either constantly fiddle with all the settings to gain an edge, or as you do leave them on some standard. Then the DLC car becomes a "tech demo" - a very interesting one - but not actually a likeness of how the car is driven in anger.

Possibly Dermonty is right in that Kunos might have done the car for another project with Ferrari, like the F138.

@Traind, True but to really simulate the reality of those cars as it were, historic tracks make all the difference... there's also the fact that many modern layouts (especially tight chicanes and esses) require you to go terrible, terrible slow with the suspension and tires of the 1960s beneath you. Compare the experience of modern Monza vs. Historic Monza. Much of the former is snail-pace gliding around chicanes and certainly doesn't come close to what driving must have felt back then.

@All: To be clear: I don't dislike what AC is right now. It does some things much better than my previous go-to simulator, and many others well enough that there's no reason to turn back or towards something else. I wouldn't have spent ~80EUR on the package if I didn't like it. The point of the thread is, looking at the last bunch of DLCs and development, to raise a few valid items on where it should be going (in my opinion) if it really wants to live up to the tagline of "Your Racing Simulator". Because surely to simulate actual racing, in actual cars of a given period, requires a lot more than we have right now, and I feel there's a risk we end up with a 100+ car collection that isn't able to do any real life series anywhere accurately.

My previous simulator had all the racing features just fine, but not the content. Are we really stuck in an age where developers have to please so massively different customer types that no single sim can come close to being truly a well-rounded option?

Taking a leaf out of the flightsimulator book, maybe AC could become something like DCS one day. Modders make a good business there selling payware aircraft (with a cut to the developers) whereas the core game is mostly an environment to fly those aircraft in. Would Kunos consider opening it's DLC system (via Steam, "all official") to other mod teams?