So far / so sound 1.10

Hi,

Now we´ve had the major soundupdates for some weeks, including awesome new sounding PP1+PP2, I was thinking of doing status and where to go from here.

First, overall the sounds in AC has improved a lot, lately especially the exterior sounds, while also improved/added interior sounds such as brake whine, better exhaust etc.
Everybody has talked about particular cars sounding good or bad, but I´m more interested in the implementation and how the sounds "feel" and immerse me.

There´s some points that still leaves something to be sought after, even after 1.10 and recent FMOD updates, as great as they are.

I´m actually a little puzzled why f.i. the exterior sounds aren´t mixed together with the interior ones yet. Whether we drive an open or hardtop car in cockpitview, we hear only the interior sounds. Yet, we can still hear exterior sounds from other cars, regardless the type of car we´re driving. Driving a roadster still sounds like your in a hardtop f.i.
I´ll not lie, my second trade since childhood has been music engineering, not car sounds, but I have a fine understanding of listening to what is going on both in music and rl sounds. So at least I tell myself I´m not imagining my own carsound-world.
To me, a good or temporarly solution could be to mix exterior and interior sounds of your own car, probably suggested before or thought about by @AC Support.
Something like (these numbers just for the idea, pulled from thin air):

• 30-50% exterior sounds while in cockpit of an openwheel/roadster
• 5-10% exterior sounds in hardtop/GT

At the same time, these mixed-in exterior samples should be added a little more stereospread than the interior one, making them appear coming from outside and around the cockpit center, much like the skid and kerb sounds. Mixing ext/int sounds seems straight forward to me, as we already can hear several other car ext. sounds already. I´m I wrong?

The second point is the idle sounds. They simple sound as a too short loop to me. If anything, probably easier said, can be done to improve and get those idle sounds to sound realistic, it would be awesome.

Which leaves me to the final sound-thing for me, namely the sound of ignition(no, not in yet), idle and then revving the **** outta that engine. That trinity just don´t work quite yet, but admitted, it sounds a lot better currently with decent PA and a sub working wonders, but still: it´s quite tame with stereoheadphones even amped up and extra EQ added.

That´s it for me!


Cheers

 

Actually, the new reverb effect is filtering in the exterior sound to the interior sounds (which IMHO can sound really quite realistic for driving next to walls). But yeah, I largely agree with what you say. There's certainly still a bit of balancing to do but it's already gotten a lot better.


One thing to add that puts me off is the 'dynamic range' and how only a certain small range of frequencies seems to come through. Very few low frequencies. This is for example really noticeable with the Sauber C9, which gives me a headache. But sadly I'm not the one to assess this sort of stuff, while I believe I have arguably good equipment to listen to music I don't have studio-grade hardware.

 

Well I´m not sure what Luca is using, but these days any plugins from f.i. Logic X and the like are very high quality. There´s a natural compression when hearing a loud car irl in comparison with recorded sounds played back in speakers or headphones. I´m quite sure that AC is recorded with digital equipment with mic levels unclipped if possible. This is where a lot of the acoustic magic already starts, so if you don´t compensate, it´s lost already here.
If AC was recorded f.i on an old Studer or Sony studio tape recorder, even a 16-track Fostex we still have in our studio, soundlevels can be recorded at +12 to 15dB and really get punchy in a natural saturated way. Recording digitally and avoiding clip, usually staying below -0.3dB really calls for work in the mastering process. I don´t know anything about FMOD, but probably there are compression, equalizing and other mastering tools available, but it takes skill to recreate what we hear without oversaturation or achieving a sound that doesn´t sound compressed but is. I remember the disappointment when recording drums, going from analog to digital. That´s why many pro studios still use tape recorders, not because it´s old school, but because the recordings sound amazing right out of the box, especially high SPL sounds driving those inputstages and the tape itself.
Anyway, that was in addition to you pointing out dynamic range. I agree on that part totally.

About the reverb, it´s actually a lot closer to what I percieve as a "fuller" sound, minus the reverb it self, if that makes sense. I don´t have much opinion about the reverb itself, being overdone or not.

Is it only balancing that is needed? I mean, is the exterior sounds of own car already mixed in at very low volumes? To me, it sound as 2 different 'sets' of sounds, the interior and exterior.
Very noticable in roadsters, there´s absolute none of the sounds you can hear in F5 view when you are in cockpit.

 

Volume balancing? No, I just meant in general. We just had a big balancing pass, which I think was good.

There's definitely some ways to go - some things I noticed would be the aforementioned frequency range or compression that doesn't seem to be an issue for everyone, better balancing of some engine volumes (depending on the car, particularly the Panamera and Cayenne seem very loud, weird for a luxury car where it probably should be a nice low rumble), things like one channel getting 'muted' in exterior track cameras on stereo headphones if a single audible car is on one side of the camera (hard to describe, an issue that wasn't there prior to 1.9), things like some idle sounds sounding very strange and with artefacts/weird loops instead of how cars in general sound with a calm low rumble and occasional mechanical sounds/clicks (admittedly I always have my game volume fairly high up and might notice that more that way), things like the very digital sounding lower parts of the rev range, things like exterior sounds, exhaust crackle, bodywork, wind and tyres sounds that don't seem to take the type of car (race or road car, sound deadening, roof or no roof) into account, that the engine and exhaust sounds all come from the engine position (meaning front-engined cars with exhaust in the back have their sound come from the front when viewed from the side, noticeable in cars with distinct higher pitched exhaust noise like the Alfa 155 V6 Ti), things like certain exterior sounds not being very realistic (but especially the older ones haven't been touched at all and they mentioned that we can't expect them to automatically sound better through the last fmod update), things like certain cars having the exact same exterior sounds (S1 quattro and Abarth 500 for example).

But I'm not a sound guru and I don't have perfect audio equipment to be able to trust my perception of the audio, and some of the issues don't seem to exist on the dev side, so... just need to try and continue describe issues, get some examples of what feels off and see if there's something that can or needs to be done about it. I think in general the sounds in AC aren't nearly as bad as some make them out to be and are mostly quite authentic (particularly when people cry about Forza/PCars having better sounding cars and then those don't sound as close to recordings of the real cars as AC does) but it doesn't do enough to convince me across the board that I sit in a real car or sit on the side of a race track (well, the latter is very hard to achieve without real-time physical sound simulation so AC gets a pass from me there) so I'm hopeful Kunos improves their sim even further.

 

Well, my humble guess is that Luca crew Inc. is also learning by doing, whatever recordingbackground they had prior to AC. I´ve trust in them too and hope they can see this as constructive criticism.

Thanks for your additions to the thread @Epistolarius

 

Oh yeah, I totally think that you can really see (well, hear) how Luca (he's the sole sound designer?) and the equipment got better over time. So yeah, I think it's getting better (the later Dream, Red and Triple pack cars sounds pretty good) and I suppose a lot of times issues come from lack of time and dealing with FMOD. Other things I just hope can be worked on over time.

 

Actually, I´m tempted to run a set of AC sounds through a pro studio rig and update, is that allowed? I have access to a studio full of high end outboard equipment (Manley, Drawmer, UA, you name it) run through a Logic X system.

Pretty sure original sound modding is no-go, but I sure am tempted.
Now, where´s that picture of Luca´s studio?

 

Meanwhile, because I now use the Rift, I found out that the Rift does has sound enhancement options, the Loudness EQ improving the realism of percieved sound a lot. Bass boost option doesn´t really add any good bass (Loudness EQ handles that fine), and the Headphone Virtualization has too much reverb to it, so I don´t have these two options ticked.
Try Loudness EQ, I can recommend it! Just remember to turn down the volume a bit. The percieved compression and punch to the sound is more my taste.

 

you could do that for youself BUT you would need the raw recorded material to process it again from scratch, witch is unavailable for us, i dont think you can open soundbanks of FMOD without the original FMOD project where the original samples are, also that would be against kunos rules Afaik.

But it would be interesting to hear it processed and mixed on the big guns by a professional Sound Engineer.

Btw, Nice to know that you are a fellow Sound Engineer, I'm too for the past 10 + years, had worked on some big studios too, now on my own freelancer, Mixing, Mastering, Doing Room Acoustics measurements/Analysis and Acoustics Consulting in general, also Audio System Alignments for already built studios.

I love this kind of stuff it aways have facinated me ;-)

Cheers!

 

Hey that's great, and to think we've raced many times the last few years without knowing we share interests
Anyway, I don't sit any longer at the buttons, I slowly transformed into fulltime electronics servicing, taking a degree and fixing all kind of stuff in the music bizz. But yeah, still record/play music and have friends that have crazy studiosetups.
You're probably right, in needing raw material. I wonder if Luca does all the soundwork himself or get the samples mastered professional before running them in fmod. On the other hand, Luca is a pro now, but you know.
To be fair, I think he's doing a good job and his passion is starting to come through in his work. And as I know zero of fmod, I can only appreciate working with limitations to get AC to sound realistic at all.

Cheers

 

Nice to see some audio engineers around! I design and build analog synth modules (and the occasional guitar pedal) for a living. You guys use any Eurorack gear?

Totally agree with what's been said. Sound is getting better and better with each patch.

 

Nice! I know the Euroracks but never used or fixed any. The most popular vintage synth in my workshop these days is the Juno-106. Which pedals do you make? I've fixed or modded thousands of pedals in my time, never build one from scratch and sold it though, kept my experiments to myself. I'm more into amps.

I hope to see more opinions on the OP topic, just want to make sure people know I'm not dissing Luca's work. As said, I've no idea what possibilities and limitations fmod and AC has in that department.

For Rift-users, did you try the loudness EQ and what's your thoughts?

Any 5.1 system users, how does it sound compared to stereo setup?


Best,
T

 

Not a sound engineer/hobbyist but here is hoping they have not implemented this because they know it's what causes most wear on high strung motors.

 

Last Studio i worked had a badass modular synth rack, had some pretty good fun with it when things were calm at work hehe. It had around 30 modules+. 3 dif Oscilators, 3 dif filters, anti-oscilators, 2 matrix routings/mixers, and lots of other fun stuff. Modular synths are really fun.

 

Yep i find that AC sound very good overall! I dont find it ear fatiguing for example, witch is very important for sim racing and Audio in general! this is a very strong good point to me.

Even if it was recorded and processed by top notch engineer and gear, the implementation is trough FMOD and there is where the magic really happens. A top notch engineer would have to learn it from scratch to do anything good in game with it hehehe

Luca work is getting better and better and that really shows through the years and how AC sound is aways going forward each time ;-)

 

@Tberg
Great OP and I agree with your overall assessment of AC sound and the nice progression it has taken.

The mixing of interior / exterior is interesting and could be very beneficial with open cars if technically feasible.

There are still things that can help with the overall audio immersion - such as gearbox / drive-train behavioral characteristics but, that goes far beyond just audio. The back-fire effects with the recent DLC's are greatly improved over the older content but, I wonder if there isn't more that can be done in regard to engine-braking effects; perhaps greater intensity with external effects during engine-braking (where applicable) and mixing with interior sounds?

 

I agree, getting back to OP
Mixing a bit of the externals to the internal for cockpit camera would be great if possible, and even give us the slider to mix it in as desired.
@AC Support is this "doable"?
Cheers!
keep on improving ac sound, its getting really good!

 

I agree with you 100%, I hate to sound negative or be critical but i feel the sound could be so much better. It has definitely improved but interior sounds are still a way off. I think i notice it more in the rift as i expect the sound to be realistic. I've also been in & out of studios & got a bit of stuff at home but i can't say i have a great deal of experience with field recording so can't say if its that or just not mixed well. I would love to hear the original samples though.

 

I almost slipped into that well of obsession. Had the massive modular synth planned on modular grids & had decided who & what i was going to sell to fund it. The problem with stuff like that is I tend to just go over the top so i told myself to stear clear.

 

Ha... I laugh but that's no joke. Granted it's my "day job" and i can write off my expenditures and all that, but I'm up to about 45U. Best toy ever.

If you had any Manhattan Analog modules in you modulargrid racks, I'm pleased to say you were considering some of my gear.

I don't do pedals as part of the regular line, just on commission or by personal request, so there's nothing there that you'd know me by.

And now I'll stop with the shameless off-topic, unless you guys would rather talk gear.