braking technique questions progressive vs regressive

hi fellas,

as i alredy posted in the steam forums, i thought my issue might get a bit higher reception here. a few days ago i switched from a g25 pedal to a csr elite pedal from fanatec, with pressure sensitive brake.
as a somewhat decent midfield pilot, i'm asking your tips about how you use your brakes, or what kind of technique you apply. i'm able of running around 6:47 laptimes with the 458 gt2 on the nordschleife (of course not consistently for several laps )
i know that proper braking should depend on the gear used (poti vs pressure sensitive pedal) and normally on the car driven. from what i recall, street cars should be slowed down with progressive pedal movement (steadily pushing down the pedal till maximum force is applied) and race cars stop the best possible way with regressive pedal action (instantly pushing the pedal with steady release till apex turn in). i always used to drive racecars with the regressive braking, because this way i got my best results in gtr2 (same isi motor?). but somehow, i do not have the consistency like back in my gtr2 days, so do you guys have any tips or ideas for me?
specially now, since i switched from potentiometer brake to pressure sensitive. but boy, what a difference it is. aside that, my setting is brake gamma 1.0 and the pedal scale knob stands at 3,5-4.

in my opinion, the best laptimes are done just getting it all together perfectly, but one of th main influences is definitely the right braking technique.

so, i'm open for any opinions or experiences in this regard. keep up and race tight

 

All cars stop the best, if you brake as hard as possible without lockup. Or, you brake so hard that the ABS kicks in. Goes for street and racecars. Progressive braking in street cars is for nice and comfy daily driving, not racing/trackday.
If you just switched to loadcell, you just need months/years practice, and that brakepedal becomes heart of the setup. But yeah, regressive braking and/or trailbraking is usually the fastest way to go. It´s easier to control in racecars due the suspension.

I´m no master in racing or physics though, so...

 

In addition 3.5-4 is good if you have a cockpit or a wheelstand with fixed and inclined pedal set. If the pedal set lays flat on the floor it might be too stiff. Check with the pedal app if you actually apply full braking force.

 

Good thread, as it puts the emphasis on the most difficult part of (sim) racing, the braking.
In my honest opinion, it's not about how hard you smash the brakes initially, its all about how smooth you trail off it!
This is a very complex skill, you aren't able to comprehend, using a potentiometer brake imo. It has to be worked on for many hours , to achieve perfection.
But as a simple guide, use full brake input as abruptly as you can manage, then smooth it off as good as you can. In doing so, you can rotate the car to your likings.
But well, that is very car dependent, and takes some time to get it to perfection.
Just don't squeeze the brake, like in normal traffic, you need to hammer it, too get the best performance.
Your new load cell should help with this.
Cheers.

 

whoah, wouldn't have expected _this_ amount of reception, specially not _this_ quick i'm a sucker for gaming and love the challenge, but getting into the higher tier of driving skills at simulations, is a totally different ballgame. which i like as well. i think somehow i get the theory about being fast but putting this on the track is really complex and needs exercise, as you all stated. actually, i am fiddling around with brake pressure adjustment on the csr elite pedal. i still cannot decide, if i want to have a stiffer or softer setting. the pedals are mounted on a speedmaster rig, so sturdiness shouldn't be a problem. at least, for every brake pressure under 75kg for hammering the pedal to create highest initial brake effect, i might have to set the pedals stiffer, will see. another different part (specially nordschleife first sector) is the weight transfer, which also effects brake timing etc...you may know better than me, but this topic never seems to be told completely to finish. interestingly, i have my ghost activated, but actually am not able to at least follow it to the finish line. 6:47 does not seem to be reachable for me by now. but then again, looking on the rsr rankings, some aliens accomplished laptimes below 6:40's, which is unbelievable. are they so much faster, or masters of setting up the car properly for the green hell? puts bellofs 6:11 back then just in a complete different dimension. my goal is to get fast with any car's standard setup, after that there's still time left to learn proper car setup for squeezing the last few tens or hundreds out of the car. consistency is the key for longer stints and starts with the driver. but that's another story.

thanks, i'll be pleased to discuss anything with you guys, always good to learn from the elder
p.s. is there any online training available on a server, or did you guys learn everything autodidactic, like hendrix or clapton?

cheers

 

Instead of the ghost, you may try a performance delta app. It is more accurate and less disturbing.

 

There´s 73 turns on Nords, so being 7sec off RSR times means you´re 1/10th sec slower in each corner in average. Usually, this comes down to, yes braking, but also when you do it and how fast you get back on throttle. And of cause, using the width off the road. The delta-app can really help you see how much time you lose/gain when cornering using different approaches.

 

thanks for the tips guys, much appreciated. which delta app would you recommend and how does it work? i guess, it takes your fastest recorded laptime and compares it to your actual one, or? regarding breaking in general: do you rest your heel on the baseplate, while breaking? or do you lift your foot and "correct" with your forefoot, for gaining the extra portion of dosage? i seem to gain a better feel for the pedal when lifting my foot off the baseplate.
last, but not least: would you mind posting your laptimes with abovementioned combo (nords + 458gt2)? i guess, hotlap is "that one" lap when everything ties together nearly perfectly, as long as this is possible on a track like nordschleife. but aside that, what would be your consistent laptimes here? the track layout which you are driving more, might be the vln / endurance layout aswell, with the nürburgring infield, i dunno..

 

@William Levesque , a challenge for you mate

 

Load cell is ded, sry.

As for braking, let me explain: You will have more grip under braking the more load (weight) the front tyres receive (which are usually the most crucial for braking). What this means is, you have to let the car pitch forward before applying maximum brake pressure, and how fast this happens depends on the car. Very stiffly sprung cars will transfer the weight very fast, and these tend to have downforce helping out as well so initial braking tends to be very aggressive. Pretty much instant for F1 cars, and only slightly slower for GT cars. Especially at higher speeds (downforce doing the work here). For street cars however, the motion takes a bit longer, relatively speaking. Many people tend to brake too hard too fast in these and they lock up prematurely, or get into the ABS right away making braking distances longer.

The point being, you have to understand what the car does, and let it work. This is why track cars run much stiffer than street-only cars, then can get maximum grip faster, to a point (too stiff vs too soft debate, lets not get into that ).

My explanation is probably quite crude but that's the gist of it

 

i'm ok with crude explanations, since i'm not coated with sugar and as long as they serve the matter. what do you mean with "load cell is dead"? are you pointing to hydraulic pedal systems, like the heusinkveld one? they _have_ to be quite superior, since they cost about as 20x a used csr elite pedalset. if not, please explain..my brother-in-law uses them and they are quite...professional alongside with different other hightech gear, including an osw. i love that feel, about how you get one with the car ontrack. but i'm just not using it _that_ often to get a comfortable feel with it.

other than that, you could eventually have an answer to my questions above? at least some hints, for letting me get closer to pandoras box. you know, i'm a humble guy

p.s. you do use sim-lab gear? i know the guy behind that company. he's a proper mate and designs top notch stuff \m/

 

With a loadcell definitely the heel off the baseplate. Thigh muscle does all the work I don't involve any other pivot points, make sure your seat can take the load and that you are not pulling on the steering wheel to keep you there.

 

I mean my CSR Elite's load cell broke a few days ago, lol. So I can't drive.

As for your other questions, it's hard to tell without seeing you drive really... I posted the principle behind the braking phase so you can experiment with that. Just know that the moment you get off the brakes is equally as, if not more, important. How and when you release the brakes affect the entire corner as it affects the balance of the car on entry. Different cars will require slightly different inputs.

+1

 

@William Levesque: oh, sorry to hear. if it is the plain load cell sensor, i believe you can order one as spare part directly from fanatec, should cost you around 20-25 bucks. i found a used one pedal set some 2 weeks ago, and for €65.- it was a steal! one of _the_ best investments in my simmers life.

@all: slowly i am beginning to get the hang of it. the main difference between my former g25 pedal and this actual load cell gear is, that until yesterday, i was used to brake with my heel resting on the baseplate, which was sufficient enough. now, since having a much more refined piece of kit, i _have_ to lift off my heel before beginning of the brake distance, just to ensure the needed brake force and keep the "feeling" alive of the car while braking. can't describe it better i kust wasn't able to apply the right amount of brake dosis wehile my heel was resting lazily on the baseplate. so yeah, i have to work a bit more to reach my goals. now i will test some settings changes on the pedal knob, just to see what direction this is heading.

regarding my questions: someone wanna throw in some laptimes as reference? secondly, which delta app are you using? is there an "all bells & whistles" app which covers all your needs for improving yourselves? and last but not least: who of you is using telemetry data for visualizing your developments? you see, questions upon questions..

 

ok, so now i had a look into some delta apps. but none seems to be able to use my personal best laptime as reference, which i achieved weeks ago. do you have an idea, which one is capable to use a formerly saved laptime?

 

I don't think delta apps can work with a prior best lap, but to be sure better ask the modder in the support thread.

 

I use this one

https://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/i...olor-delta-bar-ac1-3.19288/page-3#post-563686

It stores best sectors and best lap ever in your Documents/AC/ folder so you can have delta relative to best sectors ever, best lap ever, current session sector or current session best lap. It has some bugs but I've been using it since it's been out.

It will not be able to get your "current" best lap which has been done weeks ago but from now on your best lap will be stored.

 

so, as a short update, just wanted to let you guys know, that i think i'm headed on the right path. shaved off a 4 tens from my pb, so there's hope i can adapt to new heights difference is, i really do not have a clue, how i drove that 6:47.3 back then with my g25 pedals. now i somehow start to feel and know what i'm doing at a given moment ontrack. i hesitated, if i was going to "relearn" my braking with heel off the plate, but i just couldn't get it working reliably for me. so, i stayed with heel resting, forefoot braking. csr elite pedal setting to 5, the golden middle. this i reached my best results with and what's probably more important: it just felt right for me. i'm sure, that you might decrease brake distance with the other technique, but consistency is the more important factor for me, than "that one" lap on the schleife. since i think there isn't any thanks for your inputs lads. i'd love to see you someday on the track having a blast.
cheers!

 

Except that you will have to learn to raise your foot anyway when you'll get to heel-toe ;-) One of the nicest things of a load cell is heel-toe, it makes it so much simpler than with stock G25 pedals.

 

yeah, i can relate to that. heel-toe is on my "to-learn" list as well. but not on top anyhow, i'm already left foot braking for a long time, but have much more feel in my right foot, which is doing all the heel-toe stuff. so i guess it shouldn't be _that_ of a big problem. we'll see..