lotus 49 feels like an arcade version, lacks tires

I have not insulted anyone. I quoted his words. And I asked simply that experience has to be able to judge the lotus 49 comparing it to an arcade.
So if you have experience in driving lotus 49 then he can convince the team Kunos to make changes, but if you have never driven a Lotus 49 then gives an opinion and not a judgment.

 

Yes guy's let's keep the discussions clean and sensible please. All we can do is report back what we think does'nt feel right and hope that the dev's can work their magic.

I was driving the Lotus 49 earlier tonight and although to me the car does'nt feel like an arcade racer I did feel some strange understeer. Does this car understeer like this in real life anyone? It just feels like the understeer pushes too far. I've driven the Brabham on this same track on rF2 and I got to say, that combination on rF2 is an amazing experience. One of the best physics and FFB I have ever experienced. Naturally I would compare the two and on the second to last corner on rF2 you can take that flat out in top gear. I can't do that in this, I have to slow down or even change down a gear to take it. With this car and track combo rF2 feels more natural to me, but obviously I've never driven the car IRL so I would'nt know which is closer to reality.

 

This car is over 50 years old, no downforce at all, no slick tires and old too. Because of that this cars are very understeering when entering a corner too fast. It´s very easy to overdrive them.

 

I'm sorry but I do not understand. Different simulator, different car, different model of the track, never driven the lotus 49 in real life, and you can say that in RF2 is right and wrong in ac? . I can accept that you like most RF2, and you can request that "ac" become like RF2, but I believe that "ac" has the best physics tested in a simulator, and I'm not buying RF2 ... Obviously, "ac" is still young, and still has a lot of flaws, but if we want to grow it for our driving pleasure, we give advice and opinions, not comparisons with other old sim.

 

Not sure if ISI would agree with you in relation to the old sim part. What makes you believe the better Simulation is AC when you don't know the reality or even rf2 ? You won't compare but you have an opinion. Where it comes from when you don't compare it to reality or any competitor than. ? Blind trust i call that.

 

Sorry, old is not for RF2. I mean other old simulators (eg nkpro).

 

I was just a little surprised. It is certainly a good start for AC, but be careful, rf2 is not just a simple game and also with some others ISI is who have made the genre public. A little respect is appropriate, as well as AC and Kunos Team also deserves.

 

Why do you think I would'nt compare it to rF2? I havent driven most cars on track and rF2 has been the best experience up to now for me for a "SIMULATION" so of course I will compare. How else am I meant to do that because I can'nt compare to real life. The car is the same, the track is the same, the driver is the same and so is the equipment that is plugged into my computer. If all you want to do is annoy other people and not give feedback to KS then the best thing for you to do is not post at all! What is the point of you being here? I wonder if you're a troll.

And if you do have some advice for KS, let's here what you have to say.

BTW - I'm not a biased person to any platform or sim, I'm just looking for the best simulation experience possible.

 

Also f.gek I asked a question, can you answer it?

I asked does this car understeer like this in real life? if no then you also cant say if it is right or wrong

If you read my post carefully you will understand that I did not say rF2 was better, I simply said rF2 feels more natural to me but I havent driven the car in real life so I dont know which is a better simulation.

 

L49 understeered much because it was setup that way. Imagine all that power in such a lightweight car and oversteer setup...

Thing is even understeering the car a good use of the throttle can put it on track again with just power. This is why i think L49 in AC is a bit behind other sims.

Physics engine is the same for all cars so I think is something with the tyres on L49. It just grabs the road with no effort unless you overdrive the thing.

I just expect a bit more work to drive the thing on the limit where the limit is a bit wider. ATM is very narrow and a bit extreme.

But I have yet to work with setups in AC even though i don't believe drivers had much choice either... it was just a matter of how much understeer was needed for a driver to feel comfortable with the throttle. But this opinion is just based on reading, ofc.

 

Speaking of setups, I fear I will get in trouble for this, but I have to ask. Does anyone have a link for a wesbite with AC car setups? I googled but could find nothing. I am not a setup guru, never have been but I DO know when I need a better setup. Need some setups for the FAbarth and lotus 49.

 

I'm well aware of this. Hence the "fake".
What I ment was: Adding ffb forces generally not transmitted through seeting rack. Forces that most definitely exist, just not in your steering wheel. (IRL).

 

Well, that IS the hard part of sim racing and where simmotion HW does play a difference I guess. Canned forces suck but a necessary evil for FFB wheel only users.

But hey, I rather not have ANY canned effects. Anything from just tyres with a hint of suspension and steering rack is very good for me.

Better yet, give me a way to balance all three to my taste

 

Has there been any confirmation as to what tires the 49 is on in AC, as well as what tires Rossi is using in that way too oftenly posted video? Read the article a while back on it, spoiler alert, a ZR1 is as fast as a Lotus 49. lol

AFAIK the rF2 and iRacing cars are on "old" tires, while the AC one could be using more modern tires constructed to the old specs, but with better compounds and more consistent construction. Given the other cars, maybe they are radials? That alone would make them handle differently in massive fashion.

Personally, I actually find this version quite difficult to drive relative to particularly the iRacing version, as the car just wants to be a plow at times. It's a lot "twitchier" and more "snappy". I'll gladly take a car driven with the right foot and just a dab of countersteer over this tank. I'd rather be spooked by freak understeer than to be spooked by the car jumping sideways after plowing.

The 49 though is certainly the most odd car in the sim right now though, but I think it will be sorted.

 

I guess there is an edit time limit here, forgive the double post.

It is a rear heavy car with wide rear tires and narrow fronts. It will want to have some level of understeer naturally because of that, though the tires offset this to a certain degree as there just isn't a whole lot of grip so it will exaggerate things. Understeer will be more understeery and oversteer more oversteery.

The BT20 was a smaller more nimble car with less power. Flip back to the GPL days if you want, the Eagle was a powerhouse at power tracks with it's huge power, extra weight and longer wheelbase, but was behind the game at a track like Monaco where it was just too big to work. At Monaco the Brabham was nearly as fast as the 49 because it was even smaller - it was a tricky drive compared to the Eagle due to the wheelbase, but also better in the twisties if you could control it. The Lotus fell in between those two for a reason in terms of trickiness. The 49 was harder than the Brabham, but it was also easier to slide around in.

I haven't taken a look head to head closely, but I bet in AC you get to that corner with a bit more speed than you do in the rF2 Brabham. In AC I just brush the brakes, it's taken at around 150 MPH or so IIRC, certainly no downshifting involved. Unlike modern F1, these cars can be quite radically different from one another, the lack of downforce also highlights speed differences in a straight line as the tires can only go so fast - compared to today's world of downforce where the faster you go the more grip you have - the limit is much lower in every car.

As I was going to edit into my post though, even the newer "reproduction" "historic" tires aren't the same as the "real" "historic" tires. They may be the same compounds or of similar construction, but the advance in actually constructing the tire puts them ahead in terms of consistency. In most videos we see created today, there is a good chance they are the modern tires, because usually 50 year old tires aren't that safe. The article that goes with the R&T video doesn't mention specifics, other than "the tires are crap and the suspension doesn't work with modern tires", but even then that is spotty at best as I highly doubt they would run tires THAT old. One interesting thing from the article I find is this paragraph though -

"Our data showed the Lotus accelerating harder out of corners and hitting its top speed earlier on each straight. The two cars brake from the same speed in roughly the same distance, and amazingly, mid-corner speed is near-identical; through the esses, the Lotus and ZR1 were virtually on top of each other. In other words, while you can’t discount power-to-weight ratio, the 2013 Corvette ZR1 goes into and through a corner just as hard as the absolute best Formula 1 car of 1967."

So it's probably a good fairly guesstimate that there is about as much available grip as today's best street tires. Which is really quite a lot compared to what we always try and picture things as. Even then, I doubt he was truly pushing as hard as he could have - or perhaps I should say as hard as would be possible without things like parts breaking or injury like we do in a sim.

Full R&T article with the ZR1 Vette and the Lotus 49, certainly as compelling if not more than just the video.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/features/magazine/fast-present-future-64-8-roa0513-2

 

Two things. First I enjoy your YouTube channel and second great write up. I read that article a while back also and was amazed at the performance level the zr1 had in relation. Historic cats like the priceless 49 can't be pushed to the limit anymore, due to the fact that if the car has a shunt it's mostly original quality is lost forever.

I'm finding the amount of detail in the driving of this sim surreal, in a good way. The discussions about the physics are taking on an entirely new and higher level than I have experienced before. The cars seem to understeer but it feels more natural in how it does it. For instance there seems to be to much grip compared to every sim out there until you push a little harder and start to feel that it's the tires holding you back at least in the 458. Weight seems to be more prevalent in this sim at a level I've not seen since netkar pro.

I'm just starting to get serious about sim racing lately and have found rfactor 2 and iracing frustrating and unbelievable in relation to rear grip. For instance I'm in the rookie class with the Mazda and I lose the back end in the most absurd fashions sometimes. Like taking a slight turn at 45 mph and feeling like the back ties are in oil. Note my road car has done turns in the same fashion at 70 - 90 mph in the rain, and I have little fear of losing the back end like iracing. Assetto corsa feels like what you should expect.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

 

Just a few comments from a historical perspective.

The BT20 in rF2 is NOT the same as the BT24 in GPL.

The limited slip diff should be set between 40% and 60% lock under power with maybe 10% lock under coast. No pre-load.

Lotus of this era were setup to understeer. Jim Clark used to brake while entering the corner - trailbraking. This should kill any understeer (and in GPL would usually result in a spin).

 

Hi there Empty Box,

I also like your youtube channel. You have a good unbiased review of what ever you talk about and I like that, that's how it should be ^^

I have'nt read that 49 v ZR1 article but I will read it when I get some time. I am finally getting used to the feeling of this sim but i'm not usually a bad driver in any sim I play. I sensed a weird kind of understeer like it was too much at a speed that I thought should'nt be doing that, but then I started to look at the speed immersion. For example when travelling at 100 mph, it feels like your doing 30 mph less (just like that on a real track from my experience). I never look at my speedo when taking corners, I go by feel of the car, so maybe that judgement was off for me until I got used to this sim.

I still feel that there should be more detail in the FFB of bumps and rumble strips but that should be coming as an option in a future update, so thats good news. The understeer that i'm getting should be able to iron out with a setup, i've been driving all cars with default setup mainly so i'm yet to try that.
The way it is atm, I wonder how the car would handle with slightly more grip on the front OR slightly less grip on the back, it would be interesting to try both variations to compare with what it is like now.

Bottom line is AC is stepping in the right direction and I feel that this will blow every other sim away. This sim is just packed with quality in every area, I just can't wait for online multi player to come along, so I can be in one of your future video's...lol