Sim Racing System

I call that situation "fake divebomb". It is straight up blocking. He actually did the very same thing in the next hairpin. I have noticed in old F1 videos Schumacher doing this same thing. As the car is obviously approaching for overtake in a curve, they will just take the turn on you, and thats it, no one is at fault. He didn't expect you not to be glued to inside line, and you didn't expect him to close the gap, more likely turn in early. I never turn in early if someone is just about to overtake. I am very likely loosing a position sometimes, but in most cases it results in great side to side battles.

A good example from our local races, which were getting serious, this is from final, guy on the left is experienced racer from real life in Lithuania. I don't think his move correct. I'm not participating in this. But it is the same situation, pushing someone out on the inside, and blaming for not taking all available space in the inside....

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10215461880727986

@demetri I have linked different guys profile. I probably shouldn't have done that. Went mad. The escort guy is much better driver. But egoism overloaded, thats for sure.

This egoism thing is indeed really sad. Quite strange how it is so common ammong very good drivers. For me this feature doesn't make them better drivers IMO, but perhaps thats how they save a few positions per race. IMO they don't deserve those positions.

 

Schumacher move was a desperate and dirty move objectively, and take penalty against Villeneuve.
Same thing imho in the two videos you posted. With the Escort probably you went a bit long in braking, but this is not an escuse for the opponent to hit you.. He had all the time to understand the situation and sufficient space, he had just to wait. In the last video from the outside he claimed to turn not considerer the position of the opponent who was in the internal line already, it's to look for trouble.
Ok racing hard, but common sense above all.

 

Yes, I think so too. Maybe thats some kind of psychological tactics, so people would be afraid to get near...

Another example with same driver as in Porsche SPA video. Again, I'm not participating in this race. But very similar situation - "don't you dare overtake me":

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=922976124520774

I guess thats where it comes from



And this one is very interesting video, with interviews of Hill and Villeneuve, including whole playlist dedicated to the subject


Like Damon said, when a driver gets away with such things, those tactics are getting employed.

 

Max Verstappen, 'nuff said.

 

I don't know if Max is that bad. He was a bit edgy in that SPA race when he blocked ferrari, and later very very nearly divebombed it. Imagine if he was getting past like that in the 90s against Schumacher, in such situation Schumacher wouldn't let him go through cleanly I guess, and nobody really would argued about it. But when you obviously turn into sharply into someone who is passing you in the inside, it is definitely not fair. Even if you are being pushed out of normal line. Well being pushed out of track is different story.

 

Schumachers move ’97 against Villeneuve was bad. The one with Hill in Silverstone ’95 was perhaps a bit too optimistic by Hill? Of course Schu left the door wide open tbh…

 

Max is way too risky and IMO unfair in defending by changing lanes more often than the rules allow, but he seems to get away with it since the race direction got criticised for given too many penalties for some infractions and since then was more leniant in general.

It wasn't just Spa, it was also Hungaroring last year where his late cut to turn in early at T2 resulted in a damaged front wing of Kimi's car. Also Kimi was the one that still tried his best to react to the situation, with a driver trying to still attack it could have been a major crash.

Very often Max just attacks from positions most drivers wouldn't, even the tough ones like Vettel/Hamilton/Alonso, or not the way Max does it, yet in the end most of the times there weren't contacts or only minor ones on Max attacks because the other driver reacted and left enough space.



He is a very skilled and fast driver, just have a look at what he did in some rain races as well, yet I really don't like his way of attacking and defending with too risky or unfair maneuvers.

 

Never forget.

 

Well, those moments you simply react the best you can and hope for the best.
Yes, he reacted well, but I think those moments in the end come down to luck as well.


I was more about his lines and how he had 'the nose' to know where he could carry the most speed.

 

Yeah, i don't see much wrong with what Schumacher did there either. There were other moves, but, for this one, i'd clearly blame Hill. Even Palmer blamed Hill there.

BTW, Hill said in an interview much later that he'd understand why Schumacher did what he did, and why he was multiple world champion, and Hill only was world champion once. You can think about it what you want, but, this myth of "gentleman drivers", and what not, i don't know. Seems a bit utopic. Even in the earlier days, it was about extreme competition. Even about propaganda for the respective nations. You can't expect much fairness and gentleman like behavior, and expect to become successful, in a sport which is the spearhead of competition. And, frankly, there doesn't have to be. This is about winning, it's about money, it's about recognition. Even when the young guys exit the junior classes, they're already fully trained competitors, only out to win races. Everyone in F1 is a multiple world champion (or, well, most of them, not the paydrivers anyway), and they will act accordingly.

 

I guess we all see things differently. To me that's a classic dive bomb by the blue car, black car was already turning before the blue car stuffed it up the inside and the black car had nowhere to go. If you don't have a significant portion of your car alongside before the turn-in point it's a dive bomb in my book.

Exactly. I've always said that in order to be a multi-time world champion you need to be a bit cutthroat, willing to bend the rules in your favor when necessary, and value winning above taking your next breath. There are exceptions to the rule but when you look at Schumacher, Vettel, Hamilton, all three would do whatever it takes in order to win the WDC and not give a damn about whose toes they stepped on along the way.

 

@mantasisg 2 of the 3 AC examples you showed I think the Silverstone / Seat Leon one is the most clear: the driver in front just changed his line while braking at the "Village" corner, he was not even turning in, he just cut the other's car line. That's a very clear and very bad infraction. He could be disqualified for this. The Spa crash is a little less obvious although I agree with you, the guy trying the pass on the outside was too optimistic, that's not a slow S by any means and the car on the inside couldn't realistically do much at that speed. Surely he deserves a penalty. The Escort crash to me is the least obvious of the three. The black Escort went wide at the entrance, thus leaving the door open. Ok, driver made a mistake. The car behind just threw himself in, taking the risk, his speed was much higher than normal. He was behind the black Escort at the turn-in point so he didn't have the right of the line. He dive-bombed. At this point there was a contact, but both drivers are at fault here, the black Escort for his driving mistake and the other one for throwing himself into the corner late. Racing incident to me.

 

The camera angle for Escort incident is too bad to properly judge it. You would want to see a chase cam and/or overhead cam to determine the exact point of the turn-in and the car alignment at that moment. Most likely it was a racing incident with both to blame as Guido pointed and I agree with his arguments

Spa crash is 100% fault of the car on the left attempting the pass as the car on the right kept its inside line and the other car simply cut into its line trying to make the turn at a higher speed

Hill/Schumacher is a classic dive-bomb. I mean the 1995 one

 

Well if we will begin calling gentleman drivers utopia, and welcome the idea that you have to be "cutthroat" to win, then it is the end of racing IMO. Perhaps time for rallycross. The simracing might die aswell, no one will want to ruin their evening by racing in such battlegrounds. Better play game where it is actually a real goal to destroy others, such as PUBG. Aaaannnd simracing is dead...

@BrandonW77 I agree that you have to get rough sometimes, but not in a way that you would become a real threat. Like turning in suddently on someone who is already making a pass to make it look like a divebomb. If you're out of your trajectory and someone is already fully commited to overtake, you can not suddently just start going towards apex like no one was around. This is being a wrecker, a very smart one - if that pays off to you. Some of those incidents are very like racing incidents, but in all of them at the last moment there is one driver who has whole controll over the situation.

@demetri Yeah thats true. I was driving directly behind them. That was normal line for black Escort, he was driving wide there in every lap. Even though the faster way there is to stick to the inside for whole hairpin. Look how blue escort just manages to turn in in time, they drives in parallel lines, and then suddently black Escort goes full Schmumacher "don't you want to divebomb me now?". Bam, wins the position. And does the same thing in the next hairpin. In both situations I was forced to do evasive actions, totaly screwing up my pace. At the end I told that he was causing a mess, you wouldn't imagine what names he is calling me in PM for "disrespecting him". Thats just how people with very egoistic and arogant personalities race. Those are the qualities of a champion ? I'll better cheer up the guys behind him then

 

There's a difference between aggressive (but still within the rules) and plain dirty driving. But I would call neither of them gentlemen driving which to me is "leave a plenty of space for the opponent even when you are not obliged to". And yes, many people drive very differently when racing in a competition, but that doesn't mean they all would resort to dirty tricks. To give an example, I will shut the door if I think I have the right of way when I'm racing for a win and will not do it if I'm driving with friends just for fun.

 

Jenson Button comes to mind as a gentleman driver, he doesn't back off in a fight, but I can hardly remember him pulling any unfair moves and even in close fights he tries his best to leave the other guy at least the room to survive.

He might not be a 'killer' like Schumacher or Alonso, but certainly is able to fight back.

 

Good idea @Schnipp, we should really be pointing out drivers who are good at racing while still keeping gentleman principles, they deservers a lot of respect for that.

I'm fine with aggressive racing, not a fan of gambling which can result in very stupid results. No one is perfect, but you know...

What do you think good driver should be aiming for in terms of incidents rating in SRS ?

I am aiming for less than one. I think drivers who has more than two, should be slightly more calm, especially if they collect that by racing in the top of the grid. It doesn't take a lot of aggresive defence two times per race, and you can win a lot.

But at the same time aiming for low incidents rating when racing in mid pack feels a bit like too heavy task, also making you more vulnerable and possibly being too soft.

 

TBH, after knowing how the incident system works I think it's pointless to put numbers on it.
Every contact with a physical object will result in one or more ('Some collisions cost more than 1 contact') incident points.

Therefore if you are a gentleman and avoid a contact with another car but hit something else like slightly brush a wall or a marker/cone you still get an incident point despite actually doing a good thing.


In the end it comes down to more than just a number.
Well, of course only to some extend, a racer with an average of 5 incidents is most likely worse in terms of fairness, skill in close racing or respect than a racer with and average of 2 incidents.
But 2 drivers with (somewhat) similar incident average can come across very different if you watch them racing.

 

I think that's the point some people forget when racing in SRS.
In this video (at 1:19.04) I think it's perfectly acceptable to hold that inside line and force the other guy into making a mistake. He wasn't forced off the track, he made the mistake of turning in too early even though he had acres of space to his left.
If that was racing with friends then it's a different story, and I'd have slowed down to let him catch up.
(It was a great battle for 2 or 3 laps)

 

Yeah, thats a bit bad that walls and even movable objects count. As well as tiny brushes with other cars. Though I think speed differences aren't enough to judge if the contact was rough or not, you also need to know angle.

I'm a bit worried about Goodwood, there will be people who will frequently hit the wall at the chicane, especially if they will decide that it is good place to overtake. But yeah, doesn't look like this incidents rating is dramatically important.