Spec-reductions/boost for fair races with different streetscars

Race classes are for preventing formula one racers driving against GT3 cars. I would hate to see both tweaked to get the same performance. Same for street car races in AC: if you want competitive cars in one race - make sure that people choose cars accordingly. Do not turn all cars into one and the same ideal car just with different skin on it.

But from what I see in AC so far I think that the team thankfully is probably immune against trying to bend and distort the cars. It seems very much as if they are dedicated to the opposite: to replicate the specific characteristics of each car as best as they can do it. They would counter their own ambition if they throw all this over board now.

I'm sure, they will not. Thankfully!

There is an alternmative: the starting line could get handicaps, a bit like in golf. The ghost car already can get launched a preset amount of seconds before you cross the starting line. A variation based on this should be doable, maybe even by modders.

This is a faithful simulation. Not an arcade racer. I suggest we thankfully leave it this way.

 

While I agree with you about the simulation part a lot of RL racing leagues do use artificial stuff to keep the competing cars on the same level.

 

Whatever, I didnt necessarly see me as the main target group, just sad that i wasted money on the game, at least regarding the street-cars.
Hope for the modders or wait for PCars.

 

... including not throwing together just any car from totally different performance classes.

 

Who ever talked about that Skybird?

First: Its totally optional, like taking slicks or not, forbide it in MP.

1. Thing I suggested where just little changes that make a fair field for allready similiar strong cars (Corvette, McLaren MP4, Ferrari 458 play vaguel in the same league) that share the same niche (so MP4 and 458 can be balanced and put in a group, but dont get in another group like track day cars, like a Lotus 2 Eleven and the X-Bow, cause the you would need more then small adjustments).





The stock versions already have similiar lap times in tests. However, even the differences arent that huge (but sometimes actually are), they can make a huge difference in the long run.
Instead of one lap, in a race you get many more laps, especially if you like to drive for 1-2 hours. The factor grows with the amount of laps.

So you can keep up for some time, but you potentially will have a disadvantage, if both have the same skill-level and the other one has 50ps more or less weight or extraordinary aero, like spoilers, which arent always popular design-wise for streetcars. With a small change, the cars will not lose their charactersitics, just a bit of ps or weight, but the advantages arent that huge anymore.
In Forza they at least tryed it, but still some cars would be clearly chosen and others would stay in the garage (another suggestion: limited amounts for car-types in onlineracing, so not everyone takes the same car), cause even not that big advantages matter. Not to mention how things would be if they didnt included it. Thats wasted potential.

Homologation is the base for serious racing. Arcade-games dont bother for fair chances in a amount, like the FIA did in reality.
The Nürburgring 24H race is good example for a huge amount of groups, cause all the different cars in that race fit in some one or two classes. The GT3-cars stay GT3's, a regular street car or a custom race car has to fit in classes that didnt existed before in some cases and are created for some cars that can fit with a minimal amount of changes. (Based on this they get 2 rankings, the overall race and in the class they race.)

Overall it would be less realistic to let different street cars in the same race,without any approach to make it a fair field.

Leave everything like it is, is just simulating bad races with an incompetent organizer. This has absolutly nothing to do with arcade or simulation.
Otherwise leave the streetcars out completly or make them only usable in a cup or solo. THAT would be consequent, if we talk about simulating a RACE.

Edit: An example. Take 2 tracks, one fast with a few curves and one slower with more curves.
Take 2-# streetcars, that are allready in the same category (supercar, trackday and not that different regarding weight/ps ratio). Test the different laptimes. Take the average time and based on this change things like PS or weight (for example) just as much as necessary so the big advantages or disadvantages of cars are minimized till the laptimes arent very different and a fair competition is possible.
In the end: The characterstics arent change, just a little less or more PS and/or weight. Every car has the potential to win, if the skilllevels of the players are pretty even.

 

that's an issue with streetcars.. if u make races with gt cars (or another series) they'll be already balaced, at least as they are in real life

 

YIt seems much more complicated simulating that a car has -30 ps then the complete creation of the tyre-physics of AC. In this case we are doomed. Seriously: It would be easy for Kunos, maybe just time-consuming.
Street cars become to gt-cars cause humans make it so. . The people from FIA are no gods, but humans like the people working for Kunos. Simulating small changes of power or weight. That is possible. Probably easier then develop driving-physics.
I dont get it. Its beyond me.
I think I will stop yelling "Jehova!" and make a mod, so if you make a potential deadly accident in AC it deinstalls itself from the harddrive and vanishes from my steamlibrary. For ultimate simulation a device will smash your body. That would be hardcore!

In all seriousness, I dont want to offend anyone, but I dont get some of the arguments and somehow got the impression people dont read or just ignore it, for another round of "thats arcade!" "its not realistic [sorry it actually is, if you do it in a realistic way]!" People seem to be selective which things are possible in reality.
It seems to be an idea from a different planet, that there are some adjustments you can do in reallife, so you can simulate that. And AC allready has some options to change the car from its out of the box-stats, naming semi-slicks (the steps too, or not?).

 

i guess the problems is arbitrariness: who says wich is the correct balance of performance? in real gt competition there's an authority.. here?

 

The developer is the authority, aint it? After all we dont have a authority in reality, unless Kunos hires the FIA or another org. . But they could take homologation/rules that allready exist, too se how cars get tested and which changes are made, in this case rules for street cars or racing cars that dont differ much from streetcars, for an orientation.
Like for everything you simulate you take data and then try to translate it in a sim.
This should be much easier to happen close to reality, then the extreme complex drivingphysics.

Anyway I personally can live if somethings not totally accurate, if the physics arent 100% realistic like some people here or elsewhere claim, I will not delete AC. Still like it.
It was only about the use of the potential of races with different cars in the field, so maximising the use of the resources (cars) we have.

And still: Noone would have to use the specs. The default cars would still be aviable/the standard.

Edit: I hope for the Nordschleife and (/time accelerated) 24h hours-races.
See how many groups there are:
Klasse über cm³ bis cm³
24h-Spezial
SP 2T (Turbo) 1.350 1.600
SP 3 1.750 2.000
SP 3T (Turbo) 1.600 2.000
SP 4 2.000 2.500
SP 4T (Turbo) 2.000 2.600
SP 5 2.500 3.000
SP 6 3.000 3.500
SP 7 3.500 4.000
SP 8 4.000 6.250
SP 8T (Turbo) 2.500 4.000
SP 9 (FIA-GT3) entsprechend FIA-GT3-Homologation
SP 10 (SRO-GT4) entsprechend SRO-GT4-Homologation
D1T (Diesel) 1.750 2.000
D2T (Diesel) 2.000 2.500
D3T (Diesel) 2.500 3.000
D4T (Diesel) 3.000 6.250
AT
AT (Alternative Treibstoffe)
E1-XP
E1-XP1 1.750 3.000
E1-XP2 3.000 6.250
E1-XP Hybrid 1.750 6.250
VLN-Serienwagen
V 2 1.750 1.800
V 3 1.800 2.000
V 4 2.000 2.500
V 5 2.500 3.000
V 6 3.000 3.500
Tourenwagen der Gruppe N
N 2 1.750 2.000
N 3 2.000 2.500
N 4 2.500 3.000
N 5 3.000 6.250

from the english page:
Division Classes
Division 1 – Group 24h-Special

• Normally aspirated engines: SP3, SP4, SP5 , SP6, SP7, SP8, SP9 (FIA-GT3), SP10 (SRO-GT4)
• Turbo engines: SP3T, SP4T, SP8T
• Diesel engines (Turbo): D1T, D2T, D3T, D4T
• AT (gas driven vehicles, liquid gas, natural gas, HVO, alternative Diesel fuels)

Division 1 – Group E1-XP

• E1-XP1, E1-XP2, E1-XP Hybrid

Division 1 – Group VLN Series Production cars

• V2, V3, V4, V5, V6

Division 2 – Group N (Production Touring Cars)

• N2, N3, N4, N5

You can take Group A or an N as an orientation for example.

 

no worries plaid

In the end, Assetto Corsa will feature 35 cars in 16 classes.

Lets wait and see what the devs come up, I think you won't be disappointed.

 

Dont know if the picture confirms my suggestion.
Anyway, after thinking about a virtual 24H race on the nordschleife with pit stops, day/night, maybe rain and a field of 190 cars (2012) in AC im kinda flashed

 

Plaid, no fight intended, do not get me wrong. I just fail to see the point. Cars that are TOO different from each other would not compete in the same competition against each other, and where the differences within a class are below a decisive criterion that is tolerated, it is the driver in the "inferior" car who needs to compensate the 30 HP he lacks by better racing line or not eating his tires as fast as the guy in the "faster" car. Whatever it is. That's life.

The worst could be if they chose a rubber AI - if you trail behind, the field before you slows down, and if you lead the pack, by magic the other cars get a 10% performance boost until they have caught up again. But I think we all can safely agree that everything is in good hands with Kunos. Let's sit and wait until we can see all the sim in all its detailed glory - and then assess what we have gotten there. Not before then I think it makes sense to draw plans how to move on from there. Dramatic changes in their original plans one could not expect this late in their release process anyway. It now is about fulfilling the task as previously planned.



BTW, night racing, and probably heavy weather, would need to replace or massively modify the graphics engine of theirs, as far as I understood it described in some other thread. I do not wait for that. The Nordschleife - at least for the time being - is also confirmed not to come from Kunos any time soon. And a field of 190 cars probably would bring down any gamer's rig that you currently can buy in stores. At least with THESE graphics (AC to me is the best looking driving sim out there).

 

Dont want to talk the game bad, cause: it isnt. But I somehow dissapointed, cause besides the Physics there is so much missing for me.
But I respect the work from a rather small dev-team and the focus on allready existing things.

 

Besides the street-cars are rather boring, in comparsion with the race-cars (slow/heavy), I dont miss Forza in general, but I miss the options for making so many street cars that dont have a real racingversion into something closer to a race car, even its not "simulated" what i change on the car.
Thats better then nothing, until someone makes a game/mod that can transform every car with enough performance in a GT1/GT2/3/WTCC-car automaticly and corret, like the FIA would have done it by themeselfes.
Hyuria GT1.

I now wait and see.

BTW: The thing with night and weather is sad. Indurance-races are rar, sure, but driving through the night with some rain...That in a realistc way could be a fantastic experience + demanding if done right.

 

I totally agree with skybird.
I will give you an example:
Let's think about a class that includes (as per image shown) the 458, the Huayra and the 12c. Each car will have its stenghts and weaknesses on a given track and each one will suit better in the hands of a given driver based on his driving skills and characteristics.
It would be up to the driver to choose which car suits him best, and it also would be up to him to bring it to its limits in the hope of a good final result.
If two cars are too widely spaced in terms of performances simply they should not race against each other (let's say the Abarth 500 against the Huayra).
To me there's simply no point in levelling performances between street cars like the 12c and the 458 (each with its own "personality", which make it unique).
It could only be made for the sake of "picking any car otherwise I'll get bored"-approach that instead would bore me even more. I am much more fascinated by the challenge there could be pushing a car against its limits in a track (or in a pack, or in a situation) which isn't favorable rather than having a bunch of (semi)-leveled cars which look different but drive very similar.
My two-cents, didn't want to offend anyone.

 

No.... Just no.

 

Could a developer respond to this (noone did it allready, if I didnt overlooked it?)
These realism-arguments against it are totally invalid, especially after Kunos allready implented tuned versions of the car.
I just want to know if I wasted money on the street cars (non cup-wise).