Are AC street cars too easy to drive on the limit ?

Do you realize that so far you are the only one bringing the term "arcade" everytime you post? No one else is talking about arcade or no arcade... things arent black or white.

 

^
This.

 

It's not to me. On the contrary. I believe in most cases it's harder to time everything right at slow speeds where transitions between slip and grip occurs faster with grippy tyres. That's exactly the reason why tankslappers mostly occur at slower speeds. The steering input has to be timed right with the right amount of angle and inputs from the throttle have to be more accurate too. A little too late with opening the wheel or applying throttle and you're catapulted the other way because of a too sudden transition between slip and grip.

At higher speeds the transition between slip and grip often happens slower since the G-forces are more constant near the tyres' limit. Often those transitions happens quick at higher speeds with stiffer suspension and grippier tyres, but what makes it more difficult IRL is that the penalty for timing it wrong is much higher, so much more nervy and stressfull to play with the limits. In AC, that important factor is removed which makes it easier. Radiant, already mentioned this is think.

I'm not saying everything is perfect is that area between slip and grip situations. I also sometimes feels the transition is a bit too slow and gradient (if that's the right word) at high speeds and feel that the reason for that is too much flex in the tyres or in combination with too soft suspension, but that's a feeling that might be incorrect, just like everything else I said above Although a lot is from experience with cars and physics IRL, not on paper.

 

Seeing as I ran the same combo and track setup as him, though slow grip is 96% +-1 so can be 95 to 97% grip level. I ran it at 95% and was considerably faster with only 5 laps there on those tyres, my worst lap was 8:23 first sighting lap in the conditions with best 8:17 (9 seconds faster)over the 5 laps all other laps 8:20 or better.

This shows I must be closer to the limit yet I made some errors and dont claim that its too easy. If someone claims its way too easy at the limit then they should be much faster as they are closer to the limit then I am and finding it too easy, I have ran some other laps on my server in that combo in the past but on semi slick tyres, this was the first run on street tyres. I was still a fair way off the cars limits after only 4 or 5 laps as surely it takes more then that to find the limits yet it still wasnt so easy in what is a fairly simple and well balanced car.

If someone claims its too easy and is considerably slower so further from the limits of the car in the same conditions then surely it cant be so easy and he isnt that close to the limit, I dont see any other way of defining limits and how its too easy or not so easy there other then running laps and comparing pace and amount of errors.

My 2 runs here in the e92 using very similar track settings.
modified setup last run
http://52.62.71.102:50041/sessiondetails?sessionid=2149#
full default setup first run after sighting lap
http://52.62.71.102:50041/sessiondetails?sessionid=2148#

Here is running the f40 which is even trickier at the limit over 4 laps, I failed to run 4 laps with no errors and tried a couple times. This run was ok except as the tyres went away I had a big lockup in the first sector and ran off early in the lap scraping a wall slightly.

http://52.62.71.102:50041/sessiondetails?sessionid=2146#

There are plenty of street cars in AC so making a general claim that all are too easy on the limit is pretty silly, surely anyone finding it too easy will be faster then those that find it not so easy. To run the same laptime as he does surely it would be quite a bit easier but then Id also be quite a bit further from the limits which he claims to be at yet I feel was still a fair way away from that.

 

So I had two situations in this first lap, using Slow surface, default setup, and Street tyres (semislicks possibly can be harder to catch slides).
Tyre wear 3x. In the first video it was ~100% wear, and in the second ~98%. I let the tyre app on-screen in the 2nd video because it was more relevant, just after the crash. Took it out in the first video because tyre app doesn't work in replays, only saves the last moment.

First I caught a good slide, quite dangerous in terms of speed and track bumpiness, but managed to save it.


Then the second video, still in the first lap, but tyre wear is more advanced.

 

Nonetheless, arcade or not, he states that if AC is considered "easy", then rF2 is at least "easy" as well, and often even "easier".
And personally, based on my own feelings with both games, I agree with him that the same perverse discussion of sim "easiness" can be referred to rF2 as well, only with the exception of a tiny bunch of cars.

 

@Quffy That Schwedenkreuz slide... In real life, after maybe 4-5 laps on the track in your life, would you have lifted? What would have happened if you did? It would take AMAZING amounts of selfcontrol to not lift in that situation. So, I agree AC is too easy, and I bring it back to the lack of life flashing before your eyes in those situations. I've entered that bend doing 170kph and it is SCARY! In the video you enter it doing 200 and then lazily correct a slide because you KNOW you're not going to die.

 

Of course I know, but it's a way to highlight the incoherence sometimes in judging a sim or the other.
AC is easy to manage in the oversteer? Rf2 is even more easy, and you can use the oversteer in a prolonged and constant way to close the corners. the difference between the 2 is that on RF2 the "dangerous situations" come first than AC.

 

In real life 99% of times when people loose control of their cars, the reason is high speed or over driven car, and nothing else. Or you want to say that the cars conscience suddenly says screw the driver, I want to kiss the barrier?

 

So rfactor2 is the physics benchmark now, i thought real life was?

 

Real life is, but if the same factors (pun intended) are relevant in rFactor 2 as they are in Assetto Corsa, then you can't single out the latter as being somehow "not accurate enough". By the way, how does iRacing fare in this department?

 

I didn't know that when we talk about a sim in it's own forum we have to constantly compare it with all the other sims... I guess that's what coherence is

 

For me is the weirdest, specifying that I have only tried the cars of the basic package.
When the car oversteer, the first correction is simple and intuitive, the tires re-grip, but then slip again, and again, and again. it would be interesting to know if in reality slick race tires are so sensitive

Come on, already from the first pages of this topic have been made this kind of comparative, iRacing and rF2 jump out often.

 

In the second video, if you didn't brake you could have saved it easily. But you braked.

iRacing does have issues where the tyre temp spikes up too much after a slide for a few seconds, making it more slippery than it should.

 

There are many reasons why the transition from grip to sliding has bigger drop off in grip at high speeds compared to low speeds. At high speeds even at same slip angle the sliding tire is moving at much faster speed. A tire sliding at 150mph lose more grip compared to tire sliding at 50mph if compared to what the tire has at its peak.

Aero is also a factor. All road cars generally produce lift. At higher yaw angles the lift on rear axle can increase. And in more higher downforce cars at high yaw angles cars generally lose downforce. So when the car straightens out there is an increase of grip which at higher speeds makes the car regain grip much more abruptly than at lower speeds. The bigger the change in grip the more abrupt the rotation. The faster you go the more abrupt the slides are to catch. At low speeds simply reacting is enough. At higher speeds you need prediction.

The reason why you claim to see more tankslappers at lower speeds is because tankslappers at lower speeds are easier to catch so even worse drivers usually are fast enough to countersteer into the first and second slide. They might still spin when the third slides come in. But at that point they might have lost enough speed so that the car doesn't have enough momentum to keep fishtailing. At higher speeds they only get to countersteer into the first slide after which the car is lost because it is much harder to get right.

 

Here is how I am seeing this discussion.

1. The way Caleb Mills started this thread is...effin silly . Posting a video of "Joe Public" fails on the Nurb. Very, very poor post to discuss this sort of thing. Where is the data? Where is the science?

2. Numerous folks have posted here that have experience modding physics. AC Physics is pretty complicated (not comparing to other sims) as I am learning. There is a high amount of technical knowledge needed. I think its safe to assume these guys know a damn good bit about car and tire behavior and a number of them probably have real on track experience. So I tend to buy how they are conveying AC needs to be improved.

To me, they are saying the cars are a little easier than they should be to drive over the limit. But I don't see them saying "AC Cars are way too easy to drive over the limit." No, I see them saying, it needs a little work, it's a bit too easy. Specifically whats made the most sense to me is that:

3. Other folks are saying it is not way too easy. And really, I feel like they are replying to Caleb Mills and some others who just make some rather baseless claims about it being easy---as the data they present is simply videos of Joe public on the track having tank slappers.

If you are one that feels it needs to be improved, don't waste peoples time by simply posting videos of Joe Public's fails at track day events.

 

However even real life experience can be useless if you don't know what you're doing in the sim... Happens a lot.

 

True. I was of course assuming they knew what they are doing in the sim!

 

When we drive in AC we drive using a controller and that controller determines how we're able to catch a slide and control the car in general. You can easily make a test: if you increase the wheel weight it will become harder and harder to place it quickly in the right position (try with the F40 for example). If you keep it very light, it will be much easier. Comparing with reality doesn't make much sense as your body is subject to various forces that are missing in a sim. Your wheel settings are a matter of taste. In the past I often saw very quick people driving with super light feedback. I often find that a lighter wheel can allow you for better control. However in my opinion it is also less fun. There are so many controllers out there and if you think that the game is not challenging enough, you can always tweak your controller to make up for the missing forces. Hoping for a game update when you can tweak the game as you see fit doesn't make much sense. And if you think your FFB is ok as it is then there is not much point to complain about the feeling (after all it's a good thing if you can catch all slides ).

 

that light wheel phenomenom is probably just cause you don`t need to 'fight' with weight transfer and counter weight trasfer .. if you try run ultra light FFB you realize you are doing lot less corecting and countersteering ..