Car set-up wisdoms

With respect this is a ridiculous notion. The idea that you have to know something before you learn it? Ok.
How do you think something becomes "common knowledge"? (Not that this is, of course)

No it's not. Really. Look, some have suggested that it's "years" of knowledge and experience but there really isn't that much complexity in a computer game where the setup just consists of a small number of fixed ranges of values you change by moving sliders back and forth through a limited range of values.

IRL there may be more complexity - after all F1 teams don't just adjust sliders, they (re)design the car. However, you can bet they do a bazillion computer simulated laps first, right? Then they make the part, fit it to the car and IRL physics it's crap - a problem you don't have in the computer game.

I've already shown the pseudo code that would generate the optimal setup for a road car and a given computer driver. It wouldn't take "years" to run that code and wait for it to finish. Kunos, with access to the source code could (as they did for testing AI changes) get thousands of laps completed in much less than realtime.

So, you know, the problem of creating an optimal setup is, if we believe the posters here, just easier to brute-force with a computer than to actually know anything about if it really takes "years" for a human to learn how to do it. Especially if the human is trying to learn by "changing things and seeing what happens" - sheesh, run the code and go cycling, let the computer "see what happens" You don't need to be intelligent, you don't need to imagine a fancy pants clever "car setup creating" algorithm, you can just try all the options and then go and grab lunch - and probably get the answer before a clever programmer has come up with a clever way of doing it.

Then you might wave your hands around a bit and say "That won't work because of driving style" - but that's overstated. Physics is the same for everyone (Except Eric Braithwaite) and besides you could just as easily get the AI to drive corners in different ways with similar brute force loops. You might want to change fast_lane.ai too if someone complains that your driving line might change the laptime and the optimal setup you want and so on.

Really, if what we need is reasonably fast performance, consistency and experimentation the AI driver is your friend at least for some combinations of tracks and cars.

Ok, the more setup options you add in - as you get to the race cars - the more complexity there is. If you've got millions of permutations to churn through, it's no big deal. Billions of options, you might start to need to be a bit smarter than pure brute force - but, you know, if you believe what's written here you'll at least get a fast setup before assetto corsa 2 comes out, which is unlikely using the 'spend years learning about it' route.

 

Car setup knowledge existed before computers were able to run a billion permutations. You can build a VERY good setup without "changing things and see what happens". When you are down to that

I'm pretty sure your method would work...but what's the point ? You would want AC to come with one "default" setup and one "optimized by the AI" setup? Is that it?

 

The point is I've not really seen anything that someone could learn from and find setups in a quicker way - anywhere, in any sim.

As I said, I've seen the guides, I've seen the earlier threads. I've seen the responses I got in the thread I created, and I've noted the hover over descriptions and these wouldn't tell anyone how to go about the process of creating a good or optimal setup, testing it, what to look for when testing it etc etc etc.

Put simply, if anyone does know how to create a good setup they certainly aren't telling anyone (With the possible exception of Aris)

Using my method you'd have a good setup and then you could use it, win the race and get on with your life dating a supermodel. Like Lewis Hamilton.

Or - and did you really not think before asking "what's the point"? C'mon use your imagination Phil. You could watch the consistent driver using it and use this setup yourself (and note, it's not one setup, you've create thousands of setups and compared the lap times. You could pick some of them, run laps, get the telemetry and so on and so on)

What's the point in a ton of data, telemetry, lap times and setups? Well, I'd tell you Phil but it would take years, right?

If you want to delve deeper you'd have something to look at and delve with. Some concrete evidence etc etc etc.

I believe you'd learn more from that process than you would by reading this thread and having someone tell you "You shouldn't be messing with those sliders" Or than you would from a guy who says "Setups? It takes years..." with the implication they can't actually tell you how.

 

First of all, lets clear things up. There isnt a magic setup that will make YOU fast. You can only make yourself fast. Every driver takes the car to its limits in a different way. Lap times arent sudoku puzzles, they can be solved in multiple ways. And yes, it does take years to learn setups, do you know why? Because you need to learn how to drive that car quick. That 0.2 +/- is bull****, if you have done your best lap once, you will do it again. If you cant do it again after 100 laps. You then have to KNOW what your car is lacking and what can you gain. Braking stability, corner speed, straight line speed, curbs, etc. That is what takes you years and experience. There are unique problems that you can face with your driving style. 2 equally fast drivers wont have the same setup, firstly because there are so many combinations and secondly, they think that different things might compliment the car better, so you have one driver who thinks that you can gain time on brakes or who like to brake very late, and you have another one, who wants straight line speed. Noone is "wrong" here, because the "answer" (lap time) is the same. This is the thing about setups, there is no right and wrong as long as you are able to get the most out of the tyre. Stop calling people out, if you refuse to learn about the topic...

 

Setup and driving are actually the same thing. You cant drive fast or adjust the setup if you don´t know what the car is doing.

 

and that is what takes years to learn...

 

You´re in denial.

But only experience will prove you wrong.

I had some of those experiences where you send your setup to a teammate and he says "i increased the rh a bit so now we can really attack the kerbs", then you take his setup to the track and... voila the car is much more stable.

 

There is no conspiracy going on to keep setup knowledge exclusive to some sort of elite.

I guarantee you that even when Mercedes comes up every GP with their computer simulated perfect setup. Lewis makes a bunch of laps, goes back to pits and says, "I need one deg more front flap and 2 clicks less rear bump". Goes back out again, gains one tenth. Computer guy probably sitting in the background going "Noooooooooooooo but whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!". That's Lewis' years talking and that's just how it is.

But I do get it. You would like a logical, heavily data backed starting point, something to at least get you going "Why 23 psi? Why ? Why not 27?" Right? I'm kinda like that. Sometimes I just have to force myself to accept that I don't have the info or the skills to even know if I'm going in the right direction, still make a choice and live with the imperfection.

I told you I think it would work, but that would be no fun to most people. You're definitely smart enough to handle the data so maybe you'd learn quickly from it and jumpstart yourself but you would STILL have drivers tweaking those already "perfect" setups, finding a couple of tenths and you'd still be wondering "Why changing one click front toe made you faster? Why? It doesn't make me nor the AI faster."

 

Im not bragging but I have a clear idea of what a certain adjustment does only after a couple months playing (at least 30 hours a week though). I never knew how to set a car up with them arcade driving games.

Main lesson for me is that you have to be really jealous of the fast guys to do something about it. Where I come from, a saying goes, there is always excuse if you don't want to, but you find ways if you really want to. So yeah, really I was very jealous. I still am because I don't think I can go any faster than what I have in rsr. Maybe if you want world records then you can say it will take years but then again, these fast guys have talent.

 

nah, its not just talent, its hours. Lets take Niki for example... he has 2k hours in the game. Do you know how much time that is? its constant practice and grinding to the top and it shows... he is one of the fastest sim racer ever

 

not saying setuping car is easy, not at all .. and certainly becoming some kind of guru is, as everything in our lives, matter of time and experience (and good teacher possibly) .. but to made good, suitable setup is not an alchemy .. it is hard to do, if you need to "read" the car and identify what is wrong and what should be done, but if you just need to read telemetry and do adjustment based on what "math is telling you" it is mosty about finding informations how to read it and what to adjust ... than after some experiences you naturaly transfer from those generaly good setups to something more suited to your style .. and of course it is not gonna be as good as "guru made" setup but for sims , our purposes and for a start it is more than good enough ... (possibly cutting few seconds of lap time .. at least in my case)

 

The only things you "need" telemetry for is to fine tune dampers (and I mean FINE tune, especially HS dampers) and figure out ride height at speed in high downforce cars (aero stuff that I personally don't really know about). The rest is perfectly tune-able by feel and laptimes.

 

Dampers, ride hight, camber, basically suspension too see where you are locking tyres, where your racing line is slower/bad , where your gearing is not perfect, where you are losing traction, where you are breaking early/late, and more.. You can read a lot from telemetry and you can pin point car behavior to exact point of the track and see if it is real problem or just nature of track (bottoming, etc)

 

Nah. Most of those things you can figure out by yourself, and with tyre readings. HS dampers you can't, same for RH vs downforce. Those require telemetry.

 

Yes you're right time and talent at the same time...and the way he talks he is a humble dude.

Makes sense, like a jedi trains at a young age to master his crafts to become a master jedi. I guess what everyone is saying is we can't expect to know how to set up a car if you only have few hundred hours put in, and sometimes listening to a lesson may not make sense at that time. Patience that is. And don't give the guy some crap who is teaching you. Remember we want something from him, he doesn't have to teach us but he chooses to anyway

 

Damn me! Why on earth I promised to do a setupping video with the GT car... Only 13 hours of processing left...

Ps. Loving the 60 fps....

 

Wings app...

 

You can.. But why not to make it easier, when you're already looking at telemetry..even tyre readings is more comfy to analyze in motec

 

I think some here is missing the main info, that he's asking for, why 10, 20, 50 psi? It all comes to the tire temperature and each tire has an optimal working temperature. If you star with 30 psi and stock setup after 5-10 laps you need to check you tire temp across the inner middle and outer section. When it reaches the optimal temp you are good and you will have the best grip. And everything you touch in the setup if affects the tire load in different ways affecting the temperature. So at the end the most important thing is the tire temp. Correct me if I'm wrong, I probably might lack some info.

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Tyre temps are not the only factor. On tracks with some extreme corners where tyre load gets really heavy, you may find yourself using way too much pressure. Just because the 'optimal' pressure can't handle this much tyre load and you end up losing too much time on that specific corner. Happened for me during a practise session for a league race.