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Downshift Protection inconsistent...

Discussion in 'Chit Chat Room' started by Manny S., Mar 28, 2017.

Page 1 of 4
  1. Manny S.

    Manny S. Gamer

    Now that we have a visual and audible alert letting us know when downshift protection kicks in, we can truly see how inconsistent it is from one lap to the next. Even from one turn to the next. Sometimes it kicks in a very low rpms. Other time you can downshift at very high rpms without issue. Hope Kunos works on this.
     
    Manny S., Mar 28, 2017
    #1
    Erwin and Baikal like this.

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  2. kofotsjanne

    kofotsjanne Alien

    It would help if you can post a video of it, that way we can see if you really try to downshift at the same rpm or not. I think it will also be a bigger chance of devs seeing it being a issue if you can show it in action.
     
    kofotsjanne, Mar 28, 2017
    #2
    LeDude83, mms and sacredaardvark like this.
  3. Christopher Low

    Christopher Low Alien

    I noticed this prior to the 1.13 update, so it is a genuine observation.
     
    Christopher Low, Mar 28, 2017
    #3
    neimadmax likes this.
  4. Gevatter

    Gevatter Alien

    It still needs to be backed up by some data to start investigating from. Btw, I never noticed any inconsitency with the downshift protection, neither in 1.13 nor before, so claim refuted, I guess? ;)
     
    Gevatter, Mar 28, 2017
    #4
    LeDude83 and sacredaardvark like this.
  5. stefanoCasillo

    stefanoCasillo Alien

    there are info in the logs about the downshift protection when it kicks in.
    Look for lines starting with:
    "Gear refused"

    It will give you the information of the "projected rpm" after the downshift and what the limit rpm is. The projection is a complex calculation that involves the time to shift down, current rpm but also rate of deceleration of the car.. yes it can be inconsistent in both directions (ie. I had overrevs in cars with protection) especially in bumpy braking zones.

    Perhaps for next major update I will add more debug to the log, including position on the track, speed, current gear and so on so we can start a thread to collect data and see how inconsistent really is and how to improve it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
    stefanoCasillo, Mar 28, 2017
    #5
    nate, Epistolarius, Ricky Reject and 35 others like this.
  6. martcerv

    martcerv Alien

    I suspect that if you have rear lockup it tends to kick in protection in spots where you wouldn't get it without any rear wheel lock. I don't know if that's an issue or as designed but in a longer race with the 911gt3 cup before the indicator I was thinking maybe my paddles were starting to miss shifts but seemed to be related to rear wheel locks cancelling some shifts once I could hear the beep each time it missed.
     
    martcerv, Mar 29, 2017
    #6
  7. Schnipp

    Schnipp Alien

    And sometimes it's just the cars fault if I understand this correctly:

    And yes, the Evora GTE is inconsitent on downshifts. So it seems to be simulated well.
     
    Schnipp, Mar 29, 2017
    #7
    Epistolarius likes this.
  8. Ernie

    Ernie Gamer

    Is it possible to have just the audio hint/beep for downshift protection and not the big blinking sign? Maybe there is a PNG file which could be made transparent. Does someone know if this could work (and how the file is named)?
     
    Ernie, Mar 29, 2017
    #8
  9. LeDude83

    LeDude83 Alien

    I hope people read this like me...as an invitation to share the log data from a test run for further analysis ;-)

    Someone be the hero and share some data, please.
     
    LeDude83, Mar 29, 2017
    #9
  10. stefanoCasillo

    stefanoCasillo Alien

    not yet.. as it is now it really does not contain enough info to be interesting. It'll something to do from next major update where I will include more stuff in the log.
    I might have a chance with a minor update of 1.13 too.. in case I do I'll update this thread and maybe open another one.
     
    stefanoCasillo, Mar 29, 2017
    #10
    nate, Sean, TDS and 1 other person like this.
  11. LeDude83

    LeDude83 Alien

    Ok, thanks.

    If there's any kind of user-generated data that would help, you should let us know.
     
    LeDude83, Mar 29, 2017
    #11
  12. ALB123

    ALB123 Alien

    Go into your gameplay.ini file and look for:

    [DOWNSHIFT_PROTECTION_NOTIFICATION]

    If you want to keep the beep, but get rid of the visual DSP indicator change the TIME_SHOW= to 0 from 1. If you want to shut it off altogether, change to ACTIVE=0

    [DOWNSHIFT_PROTECTION_NOTIFICATION]
    ACTIVE=1
    TIME_SHOW=0
    TIME_BLINKING=0.3

    I recommend leaving it on (audibly) for now. Sure, get rid of the flashing DSP warning if you want. I did. However, it's nice to get some feedback if I'm being too aggressive with my downshifts. It's a really innocent :BEEP: so I believe it can be a good learning tool. Your mileage may vary.
     
    ALB123, Mar 29, 2017
    #12
    Ernie and LeDude83 like this.
  13. matz_AUT

    matz_AUT Hardcore Simmer

    Did some online races yesterday with the GT4 Clubsport, and must confess, that I really like the downshift protection warning thingy.
    The animation of the visual marker is not intrusive and the beep is short but clearly audible.
    It feels like genuinly coming from the cars electronics.

    I do shift down too early quite regularly with that particular car, and with the downshift protection warning, I somehow was able to improve on it.
    The warning going off is like a kick in the butt, or the driving instructor sitting next to you saying "you can do better then that!"

    Thanks for this, well done:)
     
    matz_AUT, Mar 29, 2017
    #13
    BrandonW77 likes this.
  14. ALB123

    ALB123 Alien

    This is precisely my thoughts on the new DSP feature. If you don't want it, you can turn it off. I'm not the greatest racer in the world, so I can use some tutoring here and there. The DSP warning feature is a welcome addition, to me. The entire first day, I don't think I triggered it once. I had my chest all puffed out until I drove the Alfa Romeo 4C. :eek: I was hearing BEEP! a lot in that car... :D By the end of the session I wasn't tripping DSP at all. That feature just made me a better driver of the 4C and I think that's great.
     
    ALB123, Mar 29, 2017
    #14
    matz_AUT likes this.
  15. martcerv

    martcerv Alien

    I turned the visual off but beep is good to know if it was a bad shift or your paddles are not registering if its a miss. :D
     
    martcerv, Mar 29, 2017
    #15
  16. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    It suddenly struck me that you are really simulating real behaviour here. Any real car's algorithm can't do more and will suffer the same problems and therefore have a similar inconsistency. Maybe they spend more effort, and can focus on one car and it's characteristics (instead of something generic), but it's a decision based on prediction after all.

    Wasn't aware of that. That also means that real drivers could actually hit the protection more often than I guessed.
     
    Minolin, Mar 29, 2017
    #16
    Gevatter and TDS like this.
  17. stefanoCasillo

    stefanoCasillo Alien

    TBH I don't know.. but I would imagine there will be a little more customization (human and experience driven) and tweaks in RL.
    BTW I tried the 4C that seems to be a "difficult" car for DSP and indeed the 3rd -> 2nd is tricky because there is a huge range between the ratios. I had a couple of misses at Magione.. tried to turn the code off for testing purpose and drive normally and bam, instant overrev at the first corner, so DSP is actually doing it's job.

    Also a "good" news, because of a bug in we found in the beta for 1.13.2 I was able to add the new log info so we'll be good to go with the analysis for next update hopefully this week if no other bug comes out from beta.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
    stefanoCasillo, Mar 29, 2017
    #17
    Epistolarius, Tim Meuris, pavano and 15 others like this.
  18. BrunUK

    BrunUK Alien

    Biggest difference of course is that each manufacturer will implement it in a different way. Might even be that in real cars, things like 'sport' mode make the downshift protection a little more lenient?
     
    BrunUK, Mar 29, 2017
    #18
  19. Aristotelis

    Aristotelis Will it drift? Staff Member KS Dev Team

    Biggest different is that each and every single manufacturer will implement it in a way that the engine not only doesn't overrev EVER NEVER but also probably will accept the downshift for lower revs than the engine limiter.
    There is NO manufacturer in the whole word that can implement such a system and not protect its own engines AND the owner/driver from misbehaving. Keep in mind that an overrevved engine can break and instantly lock the powered wheels... think what can happen at high speed if you lock your powering wheels. Think what the lawyers can do...

    There is only one solution if the downshift protection disturbs you. Learn to drive properly! It's as simple as that. If you get on the downshift protection you're doing it wrong (and your car balance/performance suffers anyway). First brake... then downshift.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
    Aristotelis, Mar 29, 2017
    #19
    Mike Kadlcak, miky, After_Midnight and 12 others like this.
  20. LilSki

    LilSki Alien

    I remember watching a stream of a guy in a mini in AMS and couldn't believe how much he was abusing the lack of any downshift protection. Such bad habits sim racers have aquired over the years. I think it is great AC includes it and also that Stefano is open to some more troubleshooting to make certain his system is working as intended.
     
    LilSki, Mar 29, 2017
    #20
    Mike Kadlcak, Epistolarius, BrandonW77 and 4 others like this.
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