A discussion about simulation accuracy

No sim is or will ever be perfect, over time they all get better. It doesnt mean for their time the others were bad just that newer ones mostly have evolved into something a bit better and more detailed. It also doesnt mean older titles become worse then they were or unplayable.

Im sure sim devs always have ideas of how to do something better but may be limited by hardware, data or development time as these always provide limits to what is possible. They will do the best they can with what resources they have available at the time, if given the oportunity to look for better solutions in the future any good developer will likely see ways to improve their code.

 

Unless we're all in the matrix already, then there's at least one.

 

"IT'S REAL TO ME, DAMMIT!"

 

Please don't say "we" as if it was some homogenous crowd and then talk about your feelings.

 

Please keep the topic scientific people, just like that guy with skull and Greece flag in it... suggested. Make it X+Y/Z*arcsin(slipangle)+believability/0 = Accuracy thread, you math fanatics, you DD

Seriously if someone with (lets suppose) whole study ready would appear here, perhaps almost none of us would be able to understand it well, but liakjim would be the last one to do that.

 

I am not going to help you and your...feelings get any more embarrassed than you already have.


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Fool the overwhelming majority of the prodrivers that do Blancpain (overwhelming majority as in : lets be generous here, gimme 85%) to believe they are sitting in their "workplace/racecar" when they in fact use a PC and a wheel, well, then you are on a really good way with accuratesse and believability simultaneously, which makes me a happy camper in the software that will fool that many pro´s .
That aside, I´ll still be driving anything that tickles my fancies .

 

Sorry...but is this inevitable mudfight not already taking place in at least 3 other threads? This thread and the entire topic is "unhealthy" and doesn't help at all to make someone happy or ACC any better. Surely there was no bad intention by the OP but come on...that topic is just a noise generator and everyone should know that by now.

Should be closed IMO so everyone can spend the time in ACC, instead.

 

I really hope the current FFB is just a placeholder and ACC was rushed out, waiting for Aris to take the data and turn it into something that feels awesome on our wheels.

 

Well the topic title was nice, but it stopped there, as author already started with weird opening post. It is indeed going nowhere.

Haven't seen anyone yet to do a proper meaningful explanation why he thinks that something is wrong, other than something related with strange FFB problem or just simply not being able to keep up.

 

Maybe ffb is funky on some wheels, its great on my accuforce wheel. Im sure if there are some wheels that are getting something strange there will be a fix or better default settings for them. The cool thing for me is there is nothing to tune in FFB and it just works well.

 

I don't feel the front end at all, no understeer, on the brakes, nothing, If I turn the strength right down I might feel the road a bit more but then my force is weak.

 

As usual, you have understood the complete opposite of what I said.

Have fun.

 

Race each other.

 

As long as Player has no real world experience with a given car in a sim, he cannot assess at all whether in its characteristic details it feels realistic or not. Even if he drives similar times like a pro driver in real life, you cannot judge whether or not this may be due to Player abusing the sim and doing things that a real driver in the real car would not do at all. We have alien drivers in sims that destroy real world track records. Are they over-realistic?

A sim provides an illusion: the illusion of being reality. The more immersive it is in that, and the more practices from real life can be done inside the sim with comparable or similar consequences, the "better" it is.

Thus my recommendation to not exclusively compare a sim against a reality only, but by how much you get a - for your own standards - believable feedback and illusion of doing the real thing. That is highly subjective then, and makes general discussions about how realistic a simulator is, so difficult - maybe even pointless. I think its better to overhear conversations from real world drivers who play their real cars inside the sim, and get some engineers' feedback on what they think about the numbers the sim produces.

And I recall from some old feedback by either Marco or Aris that that is exactly what they prefer to have: both subjective driver feedback AND egnineer's number data.

The problem is that a sim-reality comparison by somebody knowing jjst on aspect, sim or reality, can produce same results - but for very different reasons. The latter can often only be recognized by somebody who knows both worlds well. And thats what makes these discussions pretty much pointless.

Its better to talk about how immersiveness can be raised to get a more satisfying experience from playing the sim.

 

Sim Racers need to feel what the car is doing through their steering wheel, real racers feel it through their arse.
Maybe their steering wheel is numb.

 

@esox71 How does that arse feel come ?

 

Your post reminds me of the Gran Turismo fans and how they used the GT Academy to prove that Gran Turismo has the most realistic physics.

 

Actually, if you read "Ultimate Speed Secrets", the author talks in detail about how he and other race-car drivers rely on multiple types of feedback from all senses except taste and including, feedback through the wheel, seat, pedals and more. In fact he states, "the more feedback, the better". So this fallacy about steering-FFB being an over-rated crutch needs to be binned, and comparison to our daily drivers can barely be applicable compared to race-cars. With extremely few exceptions, we Sim-racers are at a great disadvantage in the virtual race-car in regard to the lack of feedback we have available. Add to that the increased speeds and forces at work in RL racing, only multiplies the feedback even more - far, far beyond what we can ever hope to replicate in simulation.

Again, different players want different things from Sim-racing and the only way to accommodate all of them is to allow more detail for those that want it for immersive reasons, and let the rest scale them down to meet their preferences. Why is that so hard to understand (?) Sim-racing is imitating reality, well - trying to anyway but, any race-car driver will tell you, simulation has a long, long way to go to even have hope of coming close to reality.

Why should we move backwards in terms of the feedback we have developed in simulation to this point? If it's about forcing everyone in competition to use the same feedback, then set some server-side forced limitations for online events to even the playing field. If the goal is absolute realism, there's only one solution and it won't be found in simulation.

 

You talk about moving backwards in terms of feedback, and then you ask, why should we move backwards. I doubt that your perception about how car is felt is correct, this being said I have to read that book, and see what is written there.

I really don't think that simracers are in any disadvantage... if there is any disadvantages in simulation then it is completely different attitude and focus levels, when you don't care about destroying multiple sets of tires, few cars, ruining the race track and spending sometime in the hospital while you try to do that one mega lap. On that matter simracing is quite inaccurate. Though Minolin created nice rating system which does quite a bit of compensation to that. On the end if you are in good shape and focused then I don't see how there is a lack of information to drive the car on the very limit, unless you have issues with your particular hardware, setup, wheel... In AC I have to admit, you could do flat out race right after spending 8 hours in demanding job, then spending another hour traveling to home 60km distance, and taking just 20-30minutes to rest. In ACC I feel like you only really can go very fast, if you are in good shape.