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Driving Technique Discussion

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by Karsten Beoulve, Nov 26, 2019.

  1. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    yes, like in any discipline hundred/thousands of hours pay out, and in reverse you won't be able to compete with the performance of somebody who has put 100x the effort in.
    BUT: it's also important to do it right. Just playing around and repeating the same mistakes won't bring you anywhere as well; it's a combination of training and to know what to practice. Theory is not optional :D

    Yep, but please be careful with the conclusions. Aliens can do better by going over what CC likes, but we're talking about a super small band and very, very precise driving. The reason for the drop is that CC gradually becomes better the closer you go to the limit (from below), but then falls off a cliff once you over-do it. It was never meant to be a tool for aliens and WR laps (although I'm happy to see aliens populating 90 - 99 values), but for the other 99.8%. And here the math works quite accurate, you should aim at good CC.

    The absolutely wrong conclusion is that "alien said he's faster with CC below 92 so I have to overdrive enough to be below 92". Stay on the safe side of things and work yourself up. You can be damn quick with 99.
    But I'm also working on this, right now we are gathering lots alien pace CC data and possibly can adjust this even better - but I have to have a look at it.
     
  2. Karsten Beoulve

    Karsten Beoulve Simracer

    Just an update on some progresses; Using the setup @n1lyn posted (only with some more tc and a bit of softer frot ARB), i managed to get significantly faster:

    [​IMG]

    I mean 1.46.5xx is faster but still seconds off his pace, but still an improvement... What i'm not sure now is if i'm doing things fine or not since i seem to have become less consistent in my laptimes and i'm often clueless about what i do from a meh lap and a good one...

    I've managed to make motec work now, (reinstalling made the magic, so now i just need to learn how to make use of it)... And it seems from my poor understanding of it that i'm doing quite well up to the first chicane?

    In any case i'll post the motec too...

    Edit: I did recalibrate brakes too not sure if that weird throttle/brake behaviour is still there or not
     

    Attached Files:

  3. stephen_b

    stephen_b Racer

    If your talking about the one that started out with a damp track yes it was with the old Honda as the Evo version had yet to be added to the game.
     
  4. Nao

    Nao Alien

    I've seen recently a video where somebody was focusing really hard on this. Which made me check just how much it is worth, as coasting before braking zone is an excellent fuel saving measure and a worthy skill to have too.
    Turns out in this case (T1 hungaroring with NSX) you loose around 0.02s by lifting throttle 40m before braking. The farthest i tested was 65m - that's a whole second (0.95s) just coasting to braking zone, which was only 0.035s laptime lost.

    Speed loss at the end of a straight has the smallest impact on the laptime (that's why modern F1 cars charge batteries there), so it's not really about how early we start the braking procedure , but how efficient is our braking as a whole. And IMHO it's much better to brake earlier but smoother than jam the brakes at max and arrive at the corner entry with inconsistent speed which then messes up the whole corner.


    edit ps: That 65m 1s coasting is about 2% less fuel consumed per lap. So if there are enough braking zones before the end and we are short 1 lap of fuel, it could take as little as ~2s total time loss to finish when done right.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
    romandevision, Jetsun and EsxPaul like this.
  5. Luis Branco

    Luis Branco Alien

    That's the one. ;)
    I did have the idea that the SE was before the 2019 Season update.
     
  6. Jetsun

    Jetsun Rookie

    yup, color is you, white is the boss, looks like we share a problem of foot sync, this is your turn2, our foot sync vary with the breaking zone, not for the boss, he is always sync, a robot :eek:
    I'm trying to focus on my foot as much as I can, but not easy as I still have to focus a lot on breaking point etc... i guess i should try sessions at a bit lower pace, more natural to me

    upload_2019-11-28_18-29-25.png
     
  7. Karsten Beoulve

    Karsten Beoulve Simracer

    not sure what i'm seeing :D
     
    Piret2000 likes this.
  8. Jetsun

    Jetsun Rookie

    Oh, interesting, didn't think about that, I have no clue how the hell you can compute that, nice. I'll try to focus more on my feet anyway, just for the sake of concentration and control.

    yeah I definitely need to brake a little earlier, and focus more on how and when I release.
     
  9. Jetsun

    Jetsun Rookie

    Brake and throttle :p, he brakes earlier and trailbrake

    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  10. Piret2000

    Piret2000 Racer



    I brake hard, but when I start to release the brake my rear starts spinning. I can only trailbrake when I brake so hard I'm too slow. Is because the 720 doesn't like trailbraking? I don't want set ups tips, I want to improve driving
     
  11. SimGuy_1

    SimGuy_1 Alien

    It is bit hard to judge from this camera because steering input is very critical to get the full picture.

    I will state my opinion (I only drive mid and rear engine cars since EA of ACC so i hope my experience is useful )

    *You are getting off the brake pressure little bit abruptly from 100% to 50%(or lower) quite quickly

    *The braking point you choose is late apex type which is fine BUT from my experience mid and rear engine car rather sacrifice the late apex benefits and choose early apex entry to maintain stability.
    I'm not saying that MID or rear engine cars cannot late apex brake etc but if you want to do this type of entry then you have to get on braking early so your good amount of braking is done when steering angle is LOW.

    Good thing i noticed is that you got on POWER when car began to slide and this is ESSENTIAL driving technique for mid and rear engine car because on moderate(sometimes even full throttle) amount of throttle you can actually make the car stable by transferring grip to rear.


    Lol this car is nothing just give the old porsche try haha. try late apex trail braking that car, you will praise the stability of mclaren after that (not saying that mclaren is easy just old porsche will make you appreciate better aero cars more)
     
  12. Piret2000

    Piret2000 Racer

    I just start to move the wheel and my car decides to spin, next time it happens I'll post a 1st person video

    I tought trailbraking was slaming the brakes and then release but leave a bit of pressure aplied, should I release it more slowsly?

    So, is better to brake a bit early and release the brake slowly?
     
  13. Nao

    Nao Alien

    Page 3, second picture of n1lyn 's post. The first telemetry line is "variance" - showing live how the "delta" changes between two picked laps. When the line is flat (and we are in distance mode) it means cars have the same speed at the same point on track - meaning that both car are doing the same thing, except shifted in time by variance value. So i just picked brakings that had flat line on straight and flat in braking and looked at the variance difference in between.
    The only real difficulty is to actually do proper coasted braking as braking point shifts forward the more you coast which needs some time getting used to.


    One thing that really helps me speed up practice time for new car / track / weather in ACC is to run WITHOUT ABS. Get a feeling of where the wheels would start to lock, and at what force levels. This helps immensly in brake release phase as normally with ABS you tend to press the pedal harder than it needs to be and when you start to lift the actual braking force does not change (or in some cases even increase as ABS slows down). It can really throw you off. So just getting to know how much braking you actually need is great.

    One word of advice is that to get the same turn in car balance without ABS (assuming no wheel lockups) is to have brake balance 2% more to the rear. And in general it's good to to start with really far back value, i often go down to 50% and brake cautiously and then move it forward as i gain confidence in not locking up.
    Drive 20 laps without bigger lockups without ABS, and then switch it on. It will be a different car :D

    ps: Similar thing can be done with TC, and i really liked no TC on NSX here, especially the 2018 version that has pretty "bad" TC logic. But it's not as useful as ABS training.
     
    Jetsun likes this.
  14. f1200racer

    f1200racer Racer

    This is from Wikapedia - explains Trail Braking pretty well

    In four wheel vehicles trail braking is using the brakes past the corner entrance, as opposed to the normally taught practice of releasing the brakes before starting the turn. It creates weight transfer to the front tires, increasing their traction and reducing understeer. It works best in light vehicles that have their brake bias to the front.

    In order to be properly performed, the driver must have excellent sense of the vehicle's behavior and be able to keep the braking effort within very tight limits. Excessive braking effort may result in the vehicle heavily understeering, or - if the brake bias is set to nearly neutral - in the rear wheels locking, effectively causing the vehicle to spin as in a handbrake turn.

    Once a driver has mastered trail braking, it can help enter the corners at higher speeds, or avoid an accident if the driver has entered a corner at a speed exceeding the vehicle's or driver's capabilities.
    1. Keeps load on the front tires so the car will turn into the corner better. That is, it will rotate (change direction) better.
    2. Helps a driver use all of the tires’ traction throughout the corner. If he gets to the turn-in point and suddenly takes his foot off the brake pedal as he turns in, there will be fraction of a moment when he is not using up all of the tires’ traction. He could be using more and carrying more speed.
    A side benefit of trail braking (although this shouldn’t be considered a reason for using it) is that it often allows the driver to begin to brake later, since he is ending the braking later.

    Trail braking is not used in every corner.[5] There are turns, especially very fast ones, where the driver wants to be squeezing back on the throttle about the time he is turning into the corner, since this helps the car’s balance and the overall grip level. As a general rule, the slower and tighter the turn, the more the driver will use trail braking to help rotate the car; the faster and more sweeping the turn, the less the driver will use trail braking.[13]
     
    Pernando Alomso and Jetsun like this.
  15. SimGuy_1

    SimGuy_1 Alien

    It depends on how much abuse a mid engine car can take while trail braking
    generally i never slam the brakes while i'm turning.
    i get on maximum brake power in straight line then as i'm turning the wheel i start to releasing the brake pressure steadily.
    Trail braking from what i understand is not to simultaneously turn and use 100% of braking, yes you have to use the brake JUST enough to get the front rotated.
    So purpose of trail braking is just for rotation before the apex,you still have to get your majority of braking done in rather straight line or with as little steering angle as car ALLOWS.

    Also you can use higher ABS to stop car from over rotating.

    It really depends on corner type, a fast corner with huge aero dependent the car with lose control quickly.
    But in slower corner where mechanical balance is crucial you can abuse the trail braking more (also speeds in such corners are low so not enough momentum to spin out due to heavy rear engine)
     
    Piret2000 likes this.
  16. f1200racer

    f1200racer Racer

    Just a guess on my part since i haven't driven the 720 but where is the brake bias set? is it more neutral or forward? if its neutral it might be causing your over steer. also that appears to be a fast sweeper of a corner from silverstone. I would in that instance not use trail braking and be off the brakes before turn in.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  17. Piret2000

    Piret2000 Racer

    57 %, you can see it on the HUD
     
  18. This is how I teach trail braking to my students, its very simplistic but it gets the theory across from a drivers point of view (as opposed to an engineers point of view):
    A tyre can only give you a maximum of 100% of its grip. If you ask for more than 100% the tyre will start to slip.
    Your initial braking will be in a straight line so you can use 100% of the grip of the tyre to slow the car in a straight line as you don’t need to turn.
    As you get to the corner you need to turn in but you can’t because you are using all your tyre grip to slow down. So as you add a bit of steering you need to remove a bit of brake. For example, add 10% steering, remove 10% brake. Add another 10% steering, remove another 10% of brake and so on. Keep doing this all the way into the apex, this keeps you slowing but also keeps weight over the front wheels to aid turn in and as you turn tighter you transfer more of your grip ‘request’ from the tyre from longitudinal to lateral whilst never exceeding 100% overall request.
    A way to think about linking the release of brake with the increasing steering lock is to imagine the steering wheel and brake pedal are connected by a piece of string. As you turn the wheel into the corner the piece of string pulls the brake pedal up.
     
    Thug, GCCRacer, Zinny and 4 others like this.
  19. SimGuy_1

    SimGuy_1 Alien

    +1 to this. you just have to sync the braking and steering input (angle)

    I must say though it is not a 1:1 ratio
    i.e if you add 10% more lock you don't need necessarily have to release 10% brake.
    it really depends on car and setup
    so sometimes it can be even less brake pressure required or sometimes it requires more brake release to go with steering input.
     
  20. Also the corner in the video isn’t a trail braking corner. A fast corner like this needs you to be off the brake and on the power at turn in to keep the weight towards the rear wheels to make the car more stable.
    As a general rule of thumb, a tight corner has a late apex and the slowest point of the corner (the point where you release the brake and get back to power) is close to that apex, you brake as deep as you can in-towards that apex, using this trail brake to help rotate the car. A fast corner has an earlier apex and the slow point of the corner is far from the apex, much earlier in, or even before, the corner to keep the car stable.
     
    lionbest and Piret2000 like this.
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