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Driving Technique Discussion

Discussion in 'ACC General Discussions' started by Karsten Beoulve, Nov 26, 2019.

  1. Minolin

    Minolin Staff Member KS Dev Team

    yes, like in any discipline hundred/thousands of hours pay out, and in reverse you won't be able to compete with the performance of somebody who has put 100x the effort in.
    BUT: it's also important to do it right. Just playing around and repeating the same mistakes won't bring you anywhere as well; it's a combination of training and to know what to practice. Theory is not optional :D

    Yep, but please be careful with the conclusions. Aliens can do better by going over what CC likes, but we're talking about a super small band and very, very precise driving. The reason for the drop is that CC gradually becomes better the closer you go to the limit (from below), but then falls off a cliff once you over-do it. It was never meant to be a tool for aliens and WR laps (although I'm happy to see aliens populating 90 - 99 values), but for the other 99.8%. And here the math works quite accurate, you should aim at good CC.

    The absolutely wrong conclusion is that "alien said he's faster with CC below 92 so I have to overdrive enough to be below 92". Stay on the safe side of things and work yourself up. You can be damn quick with 99.
    But I'm also working on this, right now we are gathering lots alien pace CC data and possibly can adjust this even better - but I have to have a look at it.
  2. Just an update on some progresses; Using the setup @n1lyn posted (only with some more tc and a bit of softer frot ARB), i managed to get significantly faster:


    I mean 1.46.5xx is faster but still seconds off his pace, but still an improvement... What i'm not sure now is if i'm doing things fine or not since i seem to have become less consistent in my laptimes and i'm often clueless about what i do from a meh lap and a good one...

    I've managed to make motec work now, (reinstalling made the magic, so now i just need to learn how to make use of it)... And it seems from my poor understanding of it that i'm doing quite well up to the first chicane?

    In any case i'll post the motec too...

    Edit: I did recalibrate brakes too not sure if that weird throttle/brake behaviour is still there or not

    Attached Files:

  3. stephen_b

    stephen_b Racer

    If your talking about the one that started out with a damp track yes it was with the old Honda as the Evo version had yet to be added to the game.
  4. Nao

    Nao Alien

    I've seen recently a video where somebody was focusing really hard on this. Which made me check just how much it is worth, as coasting before braking zone is an excellent fuel saving measure and a worthy skill to have too.
    Turns out in this case (T1 hungaroring with NSX) you loose around 0.02s by lifting throttle 40m before braking. The farthest i tested was 65m - that's a whole second (0.95s) just coasting to braking zone, which was only 0.035s laptime lost.

    Speed loss at the end of a straight has the smallest impact on the laptime (that's why modern F1 cars charge batteries there), so it's not really about how early we start the braking procedure , but how efficient is our braking as a whole. And IMHO it's much better to brake earlier but smoother than jam the brakes at max and arrive at the corner entry with inconsistent speed which then messes up the whole corner.

    edit ps: That 65m 1s coasting is about 2% less fuel consumed per lap. So if there are enough braking zones before the end and we are short 1 lap of fuel, it could take as little as ~2s total time loss to finish when done right.
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
    romandevision, Jetsun and EsxPaul like this.
  5. Luis Branco

    Luis Branco Alien

    That's the one. ;)
    I did have the idea that the SE was before the 2019 Season update.
  6. Jetsun

    Jetsun Rookie

    yup, color is you, white is the boss, looks like we share a problem of foot sync, this is your turn2, our foot sync vary with the breaking zone, not for the boss, he is always sync, a robot :eek:
    I'm trying to focus on my foot as much as I can, but not easy as I still have to focus a lot on breaking point etc... i guess i should try sessions at a bit lower pace, more natural to me

  7. not sure what i'm seeing :D
    Piret2000 likes this.
  8. Jetsun

    Jetsun Rookie

    Oh, interesting, didn't think about that, I have no clue how the hell you can compute that, nice. I'll try to focus more on my feet anyway, just for the sake of concentration and control.

    yeah I definitely need to brake a little earlier, and focus more on how and when I release.
  9. Jetsun

    Jetsun Rookie

    Brake and throttle :p, he brakes earlier and trailbrake

    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  10. Nao

    Nao Alien

    Page 3, second picture of n1lyn 's post. The first telemetry line is "variance" - showing live how the "delta" changes between two picked laps. When the line is flat (and we are in distance mode) it means cars have the same speed at the same point on track - meaning that both car are doing the same thing, except shifted in time by variance value. So i just picked brakings that had flat line on straight and flat in braking and looked at the variance difference in between.
    The only real difficulty is to actually do proper coasted braking as braking point shifts forward the more you coast which needs some time getting used to.

    One thing that really helps me speed up practice time for new car / track / weather in ACC is to run WITHOUT ABS. Get a feeling of where the wheels would start to lock, and at what force levels. This helps immensly in brake release phase as normally with ABS you tend to press the pedal harder than it needs to be and when you start to lift the actual braking force does not change (or in some cases even increase as ABS slows down). It can really throw you off. So just getting to know how much braking you actually need is great.

    One word of advice is that to get the same turn in car balance without ABS (assuming no wheel lockups) is to have brake balance 2% more to the rear. And in general it's good to to start with really far back value, i often go down to 50% and brake cautiously and then move it forward as i gain confidence in not locking up.
    Drive 20 laps without bigger lockups without ABS, and then switch it on. It will be a different car :D

    ps: Similar thing can be done with TC, and i really liked no TC on NSX here, especially the 2018 version that has pretty "bad" TC logic. But it's not as useful as ABS training.
    Jetsun likes this.
  11. Been trying to learn a bit from motec through some youtube videos and stuff; and from my limited understanding, the most amazing difference lies in how fast @n1lyn is able to go full throttle; everywhere i go gradually he seems to be able to always smash the throttle to the floor without any need go gradually like i do... And he gets zero wheelspin all the times!

    I should maybe try to trust the car a bit more?
  12. Jetsun

    Jetsun Rookie

    Wow, now that I'm CC 90 I was planning to try aggro setup, but gonna do that before :)

    About the variance thingy is there any book or something that explains those kind of theory, I have no memory at all, can only memorize what I understand lol.
  13. Nao

    Nao Alien

    Likely yeah, but also looking at just the speed traces we can see that you are taking different (entry oriented) line so even if you'd utilize the car to the fullest potential you still likely loose on those exits.
    There does not seem to be a GPS track for ACC workspace to compare lines more easily like in AC. I wonder if somebody already made one, as it should be possible to do it from LAT/LON acceleration.

    @Jetsun There are some guidebooks and also Motec has proper manual built in, but without actually diving in and using it to calculate stuff the knowledge will evaporate fast anyways
    Westy226 and Jetsun like this.
  14. n1lyn

    n1lyn Racer

    I think if you take a look at steering angle when I go full throttle, you'll likely see that I'm already turning a lot less at that point when you do, indicating that I have a lot more rotation done and the car is pointing to the straight
    Turk, Karsten Beoulve and Jetsun like this.
  15. Jetsun

    Jetsun Rookie

    That was really a golden advice to me, I'm very surprised on how you easily feel the lock up in ACC, and how it is helpful as a learning process, I feel like I was 0-1 breaking before that, I keep the car far more balanced.

    when I increase back the bias, I do so up to the point I have no more snap oversteer in turn in braking, is that correct?

    I now am at 0.5 of my previous best with still some flatspoting here and there, (first time I thought my ffb was broken, then wonder if that was a puncture :D) I so love this new way of driving that I'll try to stick with it to practice trail braking before going back to ABS 1

    I'm now trying n1lyn setup (ABS 0, TC 1) and I handle it far more better than my first try, great! Even if putting ABS off feels really dangerous and weird at first, sounds like it really cuts down the learning process :)
  16. Nao

    Nao Alien

    Nice! Glad it worked for you. From personal experience 0.5s is around the time lost by running without electronics. Congrats :)

    The question of brake bias can be tricky as it depends on a lot of things, but yeah, as you gain pace and confidence, the car should get more and more oversteery on entry which you then fix with more forward brake balance. If it doesn't do that, or it both oversteers and locks up the front at the same time, try different lines instead of fighting the brakes.

    Also, just for this challenge try TC at 0. There are a few interesting discoveries to be made on this combo. :) (if makes the car too oversteery to drive, give a front ride height a click or two up)
    Jetsun likes this.
  17. Luis Branco

    Luis Branco Alien

    Braking with ABS on and off is quite different.
    Not using ABS on GT3 doesn't make much sense and you don't improve much on your driving with it off once you turn ABS on, although having it off can be fun and rewarding, but just for the kick of it.

    Using TC off, now that is another thing altogether and everything you improve in your driving method by having it off will be put to good use even with TC on.
  18. Jetsun

    Jetsun Rookie

    You might wanna change your mind about that, it does help me a lot, mainly because of my heavy left foot:

    At the same time it prepares me for some openwheel, DTM and other fun :)
    As both of you are pointing out this TC Off stuff I'll go wild very soon:D
  19. Luis Branco

    Luis Branco Alien

    My point is simple: once you have ABS on, the modulation required when ABS is off, precisely to prevent wheel locking, is not required any more, thus why the method for braking with ABS off is different than when ABS is on, and that method doesn't improve much your braking, if anything at all, the moment you start using ABS.
    The brake use, namely bleed the brake pedal pressure on turn in (trail braking), is related to the car balance rather than with wheel lock, and is a method used with either ABS on or off.
    If anything, the method to brake without ABS is contra productive when ABS is used, simply because it's much more difficult to continuously be more efficient modulating the brakes with the foot than with use of electronics, ending up by not applying the full braking force when trying manually to avoid wheel locking with ABS engaged.
  20. Jetsun

    Jetsun Rookie

    I'm no specialist at all, but here is how I imagine it works: if you press too hard, the abs will adjust the breaking force so that it is at the level just before wheel locking, whatever your foot position behind this limit will always produce the same braking force then.
    When you tail break you want to lower the breaking force as soon as you start releasing your foot because some of the grip is necessary to turn in. If your foot is too far beyond the locking limit, when you release brake the abs will keep the braking force constant, so as you are already steering and expecting to have lowered your braking, you'll lose grip... That's why I feel important that my left foot have memory of locking point. If that makes sense.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
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