Let's discuss iRacing

I just mean for looking at tire cooling with different camber settings.

 

well for that no .. but you still gona need (want) those temps (I-M-O) to help you set camber .. or not .. depends on how you work on your setups

 

yeh sorry, not making myself clear, was gonna do some telemetry analysis to look at the debate at hand of whether the inside or outside cools faster, but no point doing that if the rf2 tire model does not take road temps into account.

 

oh, my apologies .. I didn`t get it .. all clear now

 

That is valid information, but your taking that out of context. The context was testing unrealistic ambient and surface temp values. And a summary of his statement is: You can't expect to have a proper scientific test by setting ridiculously warm surface temps and ridiculously low ambient temperature.

On straights, the inside tire gets hotter than the outside with more negative camber. If you set camber to zero, temps will be equal on the straights... It does not have to do with the center of gravity.

This.

 

I disagree with zero camber equating to even wear. If you have an open-wheeler and all you're doing is travelling in a straight line, most likely the inside of the tyres will heat up more than outside due to center of gravity. Most suspension is designed to compress and give negative camber when compressed, so camber is still a big part of the equation. It is not completely ruled out even when you setup a car for zero camber and drive only on straights. There is a small difference.

 

That could be true but it could also be allot of things. I noticed the tyres weren't cooling down when they were standing still. Infact if you look from 3:10 onwards, you can clearly see the tyres warm up when he stops the car. It's rather odd when you see before it was practically cold. My guess is the ambient temperature was high because of the other F1 cars there in close proximity(causing the tyres to warm up on the grid). Where the patches of the tyre that were shielded from the ambient temperature look colder because they were underneath the car and not exposed to the high ambient temperatures around. I don't think it's enough to prove tarmac alone cools the tyres, because if you compare before he stops and when he moves, the spot is a shade of blue and not black.

 

Unfortunately, there are few people with much experience in both Real-Life racing and Simulation sharing the same opinions about which Sim is the most real.

Having said that, I'm guessing that he is referring to grip-levels at lower speeds; they are often too low in Simulations IMO. I've only done a little Auto-cross driving aside from normal road driving and some hoonigan-type mischief as a kid but, I have experience with quite a few different vehicles where physics were pushed to the limit - just not at extreme high-speeds as on a race-course.

 

I don't think that's odd. What I think is happening is inner (core) tire heat spreading to surface rubber. The temp is rising as the heat dissipation is less compared to while the car was moving.

 

I didn't say anything about wear. But, I meant the tires actually having 0 camber. I meant the tires having a perfectly flat contact patch with the road.

Center of gravity really isn't a part of this. The camber that the car has set, the camber gain--which is fixed to the suspension design--, downforce, wheel rates, damper rates, rolling resistance, ambient temp and track temp are what matter.

You could set up an open wheeler with 0 downforce, and then set camber to 0. Drive it down the straight and use the Dev Suspension App to check the actual camber while driving down the straight. Not 0? Adjust the camber and test again. Center of gravity has nothing to do with it.

I think your confusing the suspension squat you see on an open wheeler when travelling down the straight with something to do with center of gravity. The squat is determined by suspension design (how much anti-squat does the suspension have engineered into it?), downforce, wheel rates, damper rates, ride height.

 

And how much did u pay for 3 months including that content?...probably more than a lifetime in AC..and that's exactly whats wrong with iR...

 

No of course you didn't say "wear" but "temperatures" which, either way makes more sense in my argument than yours. Your argument is silly "no I didn't say wear" completely stupid when the two are related like brother and sister. What are you trying to say with this nonsense paragraphs? How does it relate to 100% even tyre wear and temps at all? You're drawing from a game, not real-world data, invalidating your argument right there.

If you had the sense to criticize my argument, you'd mention how temperatures are completely and 100% even when a car drives in a straight line, rather than go off on a tangent about center of gravity, which you seem to misunderstand yourself. Completely ignoring the details as usual. No Suspension squat/camber is irrelevant when open-wheeler are designed to have more weight in the body "middle" of the car, rather than spread evenly. This results in the tyres wearing out faster in the inside. You'll have to squint to see it, thanks to modern engineering but it's Center Of Gravity at work again.

 

Right. Invalidating my argument because I'm saying to use the Simulation--very well modeled on reality--to test something. Clearly invalidating.

Look Sidewayz, I'm certainly not a master at this stuff like some of my friends. However I have done extensive reading, research and working with suspensions. I spent over 16 hours designing a double wishbone suspension in a Suspenion Analyzer program to behave like a 15 degree semi-trailing arm. You can see full info on that here: Link

@aphidgod, @mclarenf1papa, @Brownninja97

It drives me nuts when someone is clearly misunderstanding physics and is continuously asserting what they believe to be correct on the forums. I do not want other people reading to learn incorrect data. And I do not want to this run any further. If you have a moment, in an effort to conclude this discussion, could you back up who is correct? Me, or SidewayzShuffle. If you don't want to get involved, no problem. See below:

What in the hel* are you talking about? Temperatures are not 100% even when driving in a straight line unless the Camber is actually 0! That's the exact point I've been communicating.

I have a very strong understanding of center of gravity; there is no misunderstanding. Perhaps you are not explaining yourself well. When you say

Are you talking lateral--side to side? Because that is entirely what it seems like by what you are writing. If so there is no difference between the lateral position of the CoG on a standard car or open wheeler.


Look at the side to side position of the Center of Gravity (CoG) on this car:







Now look at this open wheeler. You see anything different in the lateral position of the CoG?


No, there isn't a difference in the lateral position.

There is a difference between the CoG height. This together with the Roll Center has a big impact on roll.

The big differences between the cars are CoG height and the suspension; an open wheeler has long A Arms, and a street car has much shorter A Arms. This has a big impact on it's ROLL CENTER, that is what is very different between a Standard car and an Open Wheeler. If you look at the two images above you can see the standard car's Roll Center is slightly farther from the CG, so it has a longer Roll Center Arm, and it will roll more than the open wheeler.

Summary of that; lateral CoG position doesn't matter at all in this discussion. Almost all cars lateral CoG is right in the center. If it wasn't, there would be very bad handling characteristics.


Now, Squat on an open wheeler (and other race cars) is taken into consideration during design and to prevent excess squat they engineer the suspension pickup points in certain locations to provide anti-squat. They set the springs and dampers to the correct rates for the car using mathematical formulas, and if they are getting excessive squat they may stiffen them up a bit. On an open wheeler they install a 3rd spring and damper which is much stiffer and is only used during high speed straights to prevent the massive squat due to extreme downforce.

No. The tires wear out faster on the inside because they are at an angle; they have negative camber; the car is riding on the inside of the tire only on the straights, and during corners the near full contact patch of the tire is contacting the track. That is the biggest reason to set negative camber; so that during the corners the near full contact patch of the outside tires are contacting the track.


You can go and set the camber to have an actual value of 0 on a real car. You know what you will get?

Even wear and temp on the straights, and outside temp and wear through the corners.

 

I dont think i could have said it better myself @Seria17hri11er

 

the prices are going up and discounts getting smaller,
price goin up "less than $1 per month on our three, twelve month and two year subscriptions. Additionally, we are going to modify our bulk content purchasing discount program slightly. We are going to reduce our six piece bulk purchase discount from a 20% to 15% discount. We are going to reduce our 25% 40 piece loyalty program from a 25% to a 20% discount

 

still cheap and good discount deals still imo

 

A simulation can be well modeled and have hundreds of thousands of hours of hard work revising/improving the code but by no means is it completely accurate to reality. It isn't. Any simulated simulation lacks the sheer complexity of the real world and it's physics. In the case of Assetto Corsa..do you know why they have to release a new tyre model almost every update? Surely you must know.

Fun Fact: Did you know there is a supercomputer far more powerful than yours or mine or anyone else' on this forum dedicated just to prove quantum mechanics exists? They haven't even perfected it yet. It isn't 100% accurate yet. So don't go telling me a simulation you can buy for $40 is going to simulate every nook and cranny of the real world' physics. That is just outright B.S. and lies on your part.

I'm not doubting your ability to learn or your intelligence, just that there is allot to learn out there, and a fair amount that is highly condensed into an easy-to understand analogy or story. In this case, simulation: the easy-to-learn pathway to reality and RL physics.

Right well I might have forgotten to insert *camber* but it's nice to know you've clearly chosen to drag out the ignorance over trying to understand what i'm saying. For whatever reasons or personal prejudice(s) you may have.
But just for the record, since you're not grasping anything that isn't your own writing, I will summarize it as fully and best I can:

Yes if we are talking about your typical open wheeler(2014 Ferrari F1, for context) & camber is setup to be zero and suspension squat is zero and, driving only in a straight line, there is still a small, higher amount of wear (& higher temperatures) on the inside of the tyres due to the uneven & concentrated weight distribution of an open wheeler. The tyres are pressured in more than one area as a result of the center-concentrated weight of the automobile. This alone or not is the difference between 100% even tyre(s) wear & 100% even temps across the tyre(s).

Of course you might be wondering the relevance of such an insignificant piece of information in the grand scheme of things & overall tyre wear, I'll leave that upto you to decide.

 

That's simply not true, weight does not work that way.

 

It does when the subject matter is tyres. These strange, flexing things.