Speed penalty for not using h-shifter?

You can do it. You just don't see the gear change on HUD. But it's engaged with the clutch. You just then need to release the clutch

 

Maybe it's to do with the way the auto clutch engages. In forza 3/4 if you used manual clutch( could be bound to a button) you would pull away from anyone using auto clutch because with a manual clutch you can keep the power at its peak as you can engage the clutch quicker and lose less rpm, automatic clutches are slower at engaging. Just a thought..maybe Kunos has done the same

 

Thanks, Vitor. I will test that tonight

 

My take is based on this article: http://www.autoracing1.com/markc/000802ShiftWithOutLift.htm

At the end of the theory section it states:

"Team Rahal was kind enough to run the data through their simulator and it resulted in a gain of 0.25 seconds per lap using the numbers above."

So for the 9 lap race @Guybrush Threepwood ran, he should have been about 2.25secs slower, not the 12 that he was. I know it's not a like for like test, but the fact he couldn't overtake anyone shows the current penalty does look a bit excessive.

As for the claims of rewarding users for using H-shifters, I ask, why it's your choice to use them? If you're not able to reliably change gear, using the system you elected to use, why are you using it and why should I get penalised for your ineptitude? Or is it more likely that you can use a manual box, and it gives you an advantage as well. Whilst I'm penalised for your not missing gears and perfectly adequate heel toe technique.

Let's extrapolate this out to other parts of the controls:
My steering wheel only has 240 degrees range, but some here have over 900 degrees, should they get penalised in single seaters? Since single seaters only use about 180-240 degrees?
My pedal box is stock, should those who have load-cells, be handed a penalty because they can brake better?
After all this is only to correct, an advantage that paddles have! So what about penalising load-cells and high degree wheels, they have advantages as well.

Lets call this by it's proper name, the logitech bonus, as most T500RS owners probably didn't buy the TH8RS. The TX458 and T300 don't have a clutch pedal/H-shifter by default/available yet. So lets penalise the owners of those 3 state of the art wheels, because the manufacturer didn't include a H-shifter to begin with. The current reality is that H-shifters are a dying bunch, as the most recent sim wheels demonstrate by them being optional.

A question for the Devs:
I have the debounce setting at 50ms. Is that included or excluded from the penalty, for not using my non existent H-shifter?

Matt.

P.S. Does this mean the AI aren't given any handicap, since they use neither paddles or H-shifter??? Hmmmm........

 

Hmm. Because we are trying to simulate reality, and you know, in reality some cars are manual. No??

 

Is not for ineptitude, is because driving manual you share hands between steering and shifter, and sometimes having to steer with one hand in a race. Then you need to use your feet for 3 pedals and also do heel and toe.. not at all a wonder in g27 wheels.. or most wheels, unless you have some higher end equipment that better replicate the ones from a car. Not being able to left foot brake as often as you'd like, contrary to paddle shifting with 2 pedals only. When driving with paddles you don't need a clutch, since while driving you may just release a bit the gas to shift up and the same for downshifting, but here you can briefly blip the throttle to not lose traction. All this action is more time and body consuming than paddles+2 pedals. But hey, you can still use the clutch with paddles in manual cars, if you have one but opted to turn off 'use separate shifter'.

Having a 240º wheel vs 900º doesn't really matter in open wheelers.. since the game automatically adjusts the steering degrees for each car. Meaning after the car reached its maximum steering degrees, there's no more force feedback and the tyres don't turn more, even though your physical wheel can still turn, but won't do anything in the game past that point.

 

This is my opinion since the beggining, but some guys just don't understand this...

Nice points you raise there, the brake cell one is excellent...

P.S.- Be patient with Vitor, he has some difficulty having a constructive conversation and understanding some basic things, just look at his answer

 

@Rui Santos u are just being biased. that test doesn't prove anything because the shifting delay in ac is different in every H shift car. some cars like the lotus elise sc has a longer delay compared to other cars like the bmw 1m.
the mazda 787B is a bad comparison because u can shift without touching the clutch.
IF this paddle shift delay gets removed, nobody will ever touch the H shifter when being competitive. People are just looking at the upshift advantage the H shifter has and totally ignore the work that has to be done when downshifting.

This discussion will never end. We try to replicate real driving and use H shifter for manual cars like in real life. wanna play with paddles? accept the delay and move on because that car in real life doesnt have paddles.

 

@Hany just because i have an opinion doesn't mean i'm being biased, probably if i use the H shifter my opinion will be the same, i don't like unfair advantages just like in other things, i've allways wanted fair competition and i'm well known for that around places where people know me...

I don't say driving with H shifter is easy but artificially limit those who don't have/don't get used/don't like that way of driving can't be HEAVY penalized, that's what is in question here, just like Matthew said... otherwise you'll have only people with H shifter driving some type of cars...

 

So if there wouldn't be no shifting delay for paddles in manual cars, this would be a fair advantage in your view?

 

(Another one that has difficulty understanding some things said a ton of times around here) I didn't said "no shifting delay", it's just too much in my opinion, how many times will i have to write this??? With paddles i can't shift from 5th to 3rd, isn't that a disadvantage too???

Those using paddles have delay even downshifting, not only upshifting, and need to blip too, don't forget this also...

 

Please.. Let go.

He has never said that. You know it too if you've read atleast some of his messages.

Yeah, I don't agree with him but I try to respect his opinion. I hope you could do the same.

 

try it and tell me your laptime! turn on damage before you try it oh try to do 5 laps consistent and without getting any gearbox damage with a kunos H shifter car.

Like u and many others I also tested paddles vs H shifter, yes H shifter is a couple of tenths faster (NOT seconds) until u misshift and lose all the time gained.

 

/
How do you know is not right and balanced? taking in account each method's pros and cons. You haven't done exhaustive testing to know if one method is clearly the better. More details/data needed when you say that paddles are heavily penalized in manual cars.

Respect is over rated and quite senseless, I don't have to respect you/your opinion, as well as no one has to respect me/mine. There is liberty in choosing what to do, which comes from yourself. I don't do things in general thinking that I need to respect because that's setting boundaries to myself and limiting my freedom. I have the freedom to opt for this thing or for the other, independently of how it affects the other. Only because it doesn't favor you it doesn't mean is bad or you had bad luck, or something was unfair to you.. etc.. and so on lo

 

I would just like to point out here that, even if there was no shift delay when using paddle shifter in a H shifter car, I would still be using the H shifter. Whether it is faster or not is irrelevant. Surely this isn't all about winning?

 

The point is the button clutch works with the h shifter - negating the need to use the pedal so the driver can left foot brake.

To make matters worse the "separate shifter" is simply a collection of buttons. They could be mapped to the steering wheel. Ok it sounds horrible but people do strange things being ultra competitive, or in the pursuit of perceived "fairness" if they don't have a clutch and shifter.

Now the regulars on these forums may find such actions unbelievable but history suggests that people will find ways around autoclutch or shifter penalties and unfortunately with the array of PC devices, DIY controllers and open nature of the OS it seems impossible to detect a real clutch pedal and shifter.

 

Not sure if you are being selective with your reading, or just misunderstood me, but i said if you're unable to reliably change gear and insist on using an H-shifter, why am I penalised for your ineptitude. The only reason I made that comment is because of the constant, your penalised because H-shifting is hard, and I might miss a gear or mess up my heel toe and your using paddles so you'll never have that issue, that some use as justification. I drive a manual all the time in real life, so know how it works, it's not hard and heel-toe is a learned technique just like, riding a bike, or driving a car, oh... I also use cadence braking to simulate ABS, should I be penalised/rewarded for that as well?

The only assist I use is auto clutch, since I have no pedal for that function, TC/ABS/Stability/Auto Blip all OFF (basically RSR pro settings). In manual cars in AC (or any other sim for that matter) when changing I come off the gas completely whilst upshifting, and blip the throttle on downshifts just as I would in the real world (Off throttle so no blown engine/broken clutch, throttle blip to stop locked axles). So again why am I being penalised with a excessively slow clutch/gear change??

Perhaps the full penalty should kick in for on throttle upshifts and non blipped downshifts. Or if you're using the auto blip, the full penalty is default? But if you're making the effort it gets reduced to a more reasonable level. At the moment I can pull the downshift paddle, blip throttle, look across the screen to the pedals app, and it's still over 50% filled sometimes closer to 75% (I've managed 3 blips before the clutch has re-engaged, when trying).

I just did a test, the Lotus T49 takes about 2.5-3.0 secs to go from top-1st using flappy paddles, how long does it take with a H-shifter?

So if you're behind someone who is using paddles, just spin them out, even if you both come to a stop, you can get into 1st and get away quicker than the other guy. Or at the the hairpin at the end of the long straight, I have to start my braking an enforced 2.5 seconds from the corner, you can then breeze on by as you can brake so much later and block change your gears.

My 240º was just an example of similar type of argument, where someone could claim an advantage (greater steering wheel angle to front wheel deflection @ 900º).

It's not like the devs could gather some sample data, based on the amount of time the clutch is used, via some software that captures telemetry. Unless they already have......

Matt.

 

If you have a g27, and isn´t using the shifter because "i dont think is cool" a paddle IS an assist.

 

Something especific or you just get physically tired?

 

I believe rather than think it isn't cool many sim racing fans would think it is "because it feels like a toy!" whereas G27 paddles do a reasonable job of feeling like those found in a real car because they perform a similar job. For some a G27 shifter will feel more immersive mimicking the real car shifter for others the mimicking is so far removed from the gear mechanism in the car being simulated it is actually an immersion killer.