Speed penalty for not using h-shifter?

But why shifters are underdeveloped? Because sims never cared to model gearboxes. If they do eventually we will get "ffb shifters" that can be detected by the sim and operated as they should. This discussion is the same to any assist/hardware over the years.

Take gpl for example, you can be very fast with keyboards and no assists, can you do that in ac? no, because sims are more refined now, the hardware will respond to that if there is a demand.

 

You are not beeing penalized because others take the trouble of manual shifting and maybe fail to do so, you are beeing penalized because you don't and take the easier way of using an aid.

Of course you shouldn't be penalized for simulating ABS with your foot because it is entirely you that does the braking and not an aid.

I think your suggestion is a good compromise for people with hardware limitations. If you lift and blip properly then the penalty could be minimized for that particular shift. Not sure if you could implement that reasonably though. I say minimized because you still have both hands on your wheel and just need to flip a finger to engage the next gear which ist still an aid in my opinion.

It would be very interesting to know on which data Kunos based the penalty. At the same time I think it's unlikely they will respond here due to the negative tone of some members.

 

You´re "biased" because you only tested (or read) about cars were paddles are in a big disavantage (like the elise). But every car has a different auto clutch speed. Unless you´re talking about an specific car, this discussion is pointless.

 

To end this debate we either need the delayed shift times for h-shifter vs paddles in manual cars from Kunos or those complaining need to start showing "real" times and replays showing that this is indeed as bad as they say. So far I have seen nothing but conjecture.

 

I had this talk with an aussie before (i guess you´re american), where automatic is the norm and manual is most used in sports cars or things like that, or countries were cars are just better in general.

I´ve driven cheap manual cars all my life, and actually, the g27 shifter isn´t bad, its fast and short. The g27 feels like a toy because it is, while some rl shifters feel like a toy... but it isn´t

 

I think my G25 shifter is better than an old Yaris Gear box. I missed shifts more times in that car

 

No I am British and have driven many cheap (and old) manual cars throughout my near 35 year driving career. I had a an old Triumph Herald with knackered synchromesh which taught me a lot about rev matched gearchanges and the feel through the lever when it was ready to go in.

The thing is a gear linkage doesn't feel much like clicking some microswitches. I can't really relate any of the h-shifters I have tried to a real car whereas my FREX sequential shifter does a pretty good job of feeling like a real sequential lever as it is much easier to replicate the feel. The biggest issue to me though is the fact the gear will physically "go in" when in fact the software says it hasn't. It would be great if there could be a software controlled baulk.

I think the closest rl selector to a G27 is the Alfa Q-System. An auto with an H shift manual option (instead of the sequential manual option). So the lever operated switches in an H pattern. It got dropped in favour of sequential operation.

 

That line contradicts itself, to me it reads: You're not penalised for H-shifters possible muck ups. Your penalised because you can't muck up == because H-Shifters may muck up.
The alternative one is: You're penalised because paddles are easy, and H-shifters are hard, but what about the guys who find H-shifting easy, do I get back the penalty time then?

I'm not taking an easier route/aid, if my wheel has no H-shifter to begin with! In a previous post I listed 3 new wheels, as proof, that this isn't just a case of user preference. None of those wheels have an H-shifter by default, even Fanatec have H-shifters as an optional extra. With the TX 458 and the T300 you not only have to buy the (unreleased) H-shifter, but also different set of (hard to get) pedals.

So I run with just an auto clutch, and lift and blip the throttle when needed. Which means I do the exact same actions as H-shifter guy, but pull a paddle to activate a microswitch, instead of moving a rod to activate a microswitch. The computer mimics the left foot action, of sleeping Stephen Hawkins Esq for me, Vs the H-shifters Usain Bolt on uppers and 20 cappuccinos.

You state that paddles are an aid as well, but they are not a lot quicker in my opinion (and the article I posted a few pages back), your hand will be on that gear stick way before you're due to change gear (just like the on screen driver, notice how he reaches out just before max rpm). If you need both hands on the wheel and can't change gear when you want, it's probably because you're trying to regain control after a moment. The guy with paddles, probably wouldn't be changing gear mid loss of control either, so no advantage there.

Why would I race online? I know I have an enforced penalty Vs anyone who has a H-Shifter, and @Guybrush Threepwood showed that it leaves you unable to overtake. In the first race he won, and had an 8 second lead (H-Shifter), the following one he lost by 12 seconds (Paddles), thats a 20sec difference over 9 laps same Car/Setup/Track/Racers (and to have a 8sec lead in one race proves he's pretty consistent and fast lapper). Also why bother setting RSR times, I'm always going to have the enforced penalty, even running with Pro settings which means all assists are off (except the allowed auto clutch).

Perhaps someone can do a basic test, using a track with a long straight that ends with a hairpin (a certain German GP track comes to mind). Set the car up to Vmax at just before the braking point, run a couple of laps using H-shifter for down changes and see how late you can leave your braking. Then do the same using paddles, I think you'll be unable to brake in the same spot and make the corner, or have to brake so early that Vmax is never reached.

Yes thats a worse case, but how many tracks don't have a long straight to slow corner? I believe that design is meant to create overtaking, but if you're waiting for a clutch to re-engage on every downshift, you're going to be out braked every time. A by product of that is, the last of the late breakers mentality, that end up using your car as their brake, because they can't use engine braking like the H-Shifter guy in front can.

Like I said I'm not against handicapping paddle users in manual cars. But the clutch bar in the pedals app, shows how painfully slow it is on a downshift, and to me it seems excessive.

Sorry for the long post.

Matt.

 

Well it's a direct comparison to any other aid... you can drive faster laps without stability control than with it on, does that mean the algorithm should be changed so that people who are capable of driving faster laps can still manage them when stability is turned on?

 

Was there some changelog or other info about how this shifting delay and when this was introduced, and how the assists such as ST don't make you faster? I think that what we are here discussing is all based on each own's perception.. so obviously chances are that we think the other person is wrong. We probably need to see a clear explanation about it from who developed it, or as clear as possible, just to moderate this discussion and give it a better path to debate it.

 

There's no changelog cause it's existed since the tech preview, from the start they decided that assists will be slower than a competent human driver can do the same thing. The Lotus Elise SC has always had a really slow autoclutch. But of course you can skip that by using a 3rd clutch pedal even without the h-shifter.

 

Shifting delay using paddles in H-pattern cars has been there since the tech preview...Aris has explained this several time so official info is out there, but I'm not wasting any time searching for it.

Edit: Ninja'd by Stereo

 

The shifting delay only had a major effect though in the update not long before I posted this thread. They definitely tweaked it to make paddles even slower in manual cars.

 

I have a G27, but I haven't actually bothered even trying the stick shift yet, I probably will one day. What I do in stick shift cars is still use the paddles, but a split second after I pull the paddle for a downshift, blip the throttle. It works really well, stops the rears locking and provides engine braking.

 

I'm confused here. Are some people saying that you can brake later when using the H shifter? To be honest, I see some incredibly late braking in paddle shifter cars by the aliens. Much later than my own braking points.

 

I don't find any difference in braking points but the cars seem more stable and easier to control under brakes when changing down gears using the H shifter.

 

It is the complete opposite for me.

 

right or left foot braking?

Most simracers have a very rusty right foot, i find it hard to believe the braking is more or equally confortable with the right foot, unless obviously you´ve been right foot braking for years and have a very "calibrated" foot. Its like a footballer kicking with both legs, one is always better than the other.

 

Many sim racers may use left foot braking, but surely the vast majority of people that drive road cars are not going to have a "rusty right foot"??