AI difficulty frustrating

And this is where the differences in mindset affect our perceptions of a "game".

I'm pretty average as a driver, I frequently fail to make the top step of the podium and to me that doesn't matter at all, it doesn't frustrate me in the way you say it does you, because it's all about the buzz of racing. You can have as much fun in a race long battle with tail end charlies as you can tussling with the race leaders, it's the thrill of the competition, the speed, the chase, the "oh sh**" moments when you momentarily lose control, the triumphant feeling when you save it in what seems an impossible situation, and sometimes just crossing the line knowing you drove the wheels off the darn thing and did the very best you could. It's about watching the race replay back and thinking, 'damn I messed up there', or maybe, 'that was an awesome move I made'. There is so much to be enjoyed but if you close yourself off from all that and are only happy if you "win" I don't really know what to say.

Ultimately, what do you "win" anyway? Pretty much nothing if you're racing against computer controlled opponents. There is no prize purse, no pit lane girls to jump your bones, no champagne to spray, no new multi million dollar contract and no adoring fans. The satisfaction of winning the race, sure, it's a nice feeling, makes me happy too when it happens, might even treat myself to a beer after a particularly satisfying triumph. The simple fact that it doesn't happen every time I play makes it all the more rewarding when it does.

So, taking all that into consideration, if you don't get any pleasure out of racing, I have to genuinely wonder what is the point and why would you engage in a pastime that brings you no pleasure unless it guarantees you an intangible reward? And, serious question, I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, if a game "enables" or "allows" you to win just because you start the race, why do you equate this with a sense of achievement or a feeling of "winning" something. Surely if there is no challenge, nothing to strive for, just a guaranteed easy win every time out, then you haven't actually won at all, you've just received a handout and had to "endure" X number of laps around a circuit in exchange. If you took your girl to a fair and she asked you to win her a teddy bear at the shooting gallery, you'd presumably want to do your best to win the prize - not only do you get to prove your skills but you get her appreciation and admiration because of what you did, she gets the teddy bear, you get to feel a sense of pride and achievement and maybe other worthwhile bonuses into the bargain ;-) You'd rightly feel this was a win! If all you had to do was walk up to the guy at the stall and say, I don't want to shoot targets to win this bear, just give it to me.......maybe you get the bear.........

Maybe not the best analogy but rather than just give you a "get good" insult I'm trying to get you to re-examine the way you approach this racing sim and maybe re-assess how you can get some genuine enjoyment and value from the racing genre as a whole, because how you look at it is probably the single most important factor influencing your assessment of the value you, as an individual, get from it.

 

No misunderstanding here just I doubt you have played the console version otherwise you would know that many statements you made here are infact incorrect and inexperienced assumptions in terms of bugs and their causes, etc. on console. Firstly regardless of the cars in the race, the fact it could unintentionally be impossible means it's broken fundamentally, do you not understand this? Secondly you are talking about one that is well known, I know of many others due to the fact I play on Alien difficulty which i'd guess only about 10-20% of total players use and the differences are glaringly obvious in many different race/series events on that setting. The description for the race I first noticed the issue is of a local trackday so no it absolutely does not suggest that, it makes mention of some slightly tuned Fiat 500s which I assume means the Step 1 version or other sports models which would make logical sense since the race is in the first series and progression logic would say they are the next step up. It is very odd that the BMW seems very out of place in the race I mention also in the race that is well known in terms of performance.

This leads to your comment of the 'AI being broken across the entire game', I haven't quite put my finger on it yet but I don't believe it is completely AI related as much. All of the difficulty levels in some races ie: easy, medium, hard and alien are scaled up much higher than other races it seems, so for example on a scale of 1-10 difficulty rating 1=easiest and 10=hardest, one race might have and easy=1 medium=2 hard=3 alien=4 rating but then in the very next logical race to progress to in career mode it jumps up to a easy=6 medium=7 hard=8 alien=9 rating. This is not logical, a challenge nor does it in anyway seem intentional. Thus it is broken in 'quick race' career events.

Then to prove it is not AI dependent, the time attack in the first series in the BMW M3 E30 Step 1 I feel is 'unintentionally' broken. Once again I play on Alien difficulty and after numerous attempts I have achieved only 2700 when silver is 2500 and gold is 4000. I accepted still being new to the game and physics, not making use of the limited tuning options which wouldn't make enough of a difference in my opinion anyway and that maybe there was something other than just time that determined overall points such as good lines, fast/clean corner entry/exit and I moved on to the next series.

The very next event in career mode is the time attack on Nurburgring Sprint in the BMW Z4 E89, much faster car and much more difficult circuit. Well on that one the gold is 3000, so I give it a go... wouldn't you know, 6500! I got over double the gold requirement. How exactly did I go from struggling for silver in the 7.4s 0-100km/h BMW E30 M3 on one of the simplest circuits to making the difficulty level look stupidly easy in a 4.7s 0-100km/h BMW Z4 E89 on a much more difficult track? So I thought to myself that maybe because it was the first event in the series and the BMW Z4 E89 was quite a jump in performance/challenge to drive(though it is 100% logically accurate unlike the scaling of the difficulty) that it was easing me into the series and would progressively get to the 'virtually impossible' upcoming events in that same series. So I then decided if that was the case that the last event in the second series being a time attack would once again be 'unintentionally' broken. This one is in the BMW Z4 GT3 on Nurburgring GP, somewhat the same circuit as before with a few variations that I know but am not familiar with. The car is obviously much faster, almost twice the performance actually and should be a challenge correct? Gold is 4500 and I get 6700. Forgot to mention it only takes me one or two attempts to get these, two being if I push myself/car/physics and and make a non recoverable mistake.

So this pretty much proves that AI is not the whole issue but it also sheds light on the fact that another part of the career mode difficulty progression is also broken or incorrectly implemented. I could go on about other possible bugs but i'd be going off topic and quite frankly i'm not looking to spend my free time finding and reporting elementary bugs in AC, that's what beta testers, developers and bug fixers are paid to do, though it seems either very little was done for the console version of this or it was not given the much deserved attention a potential genre-defining game like AC should. I weep for this.

 

Pot, kettle, black ? ;-)

I don't think it is my comprehension that is lacking, assuming that's what you are asking, but let's move on...and try to play nice with each other eh?

More unsupported assumptions? But I see what you did there.....

Sorry, but that last paragraph really is a bit confusing so let's just get to where we start to agree on some things.

Yes, I think it is clear that the inconsistencies do 'seem' to be an issue in career mode in particular. No arguments from me there, we are in agreement. I have read elsewhere from PC users that the career mode has always been a bit hit and miss in certain areas so it would seem we are getting the same as them in that regard

What difficulty do you play on again?
(OK, sorry, I'll stop with the jibes if you agree to do the same . I'm just kidding, hopefully as an Aussie you have a reasonable grasp of a Pom's sense of humour - I freely admit that on alien difficulty I'd get my a** handed to me 99 times out of 100 so props to you for taking on the challenge).

Back on point, the intro to the event in question tells you that you are being tested by racing on a dusty track surface with far from optimal grip, so that's one factor that probably has something to do with it. We have to presume (again) that this genuinely affects the handling model and is detrimental to the overall useable performance and attainable laptimes, all other variables considered.

Well, you answer your own questions in part. In the first example you have a much more modern vehicle with its associated chassis superiority, power advantage, brakes, tyres etc, combined with optimal track surface grip as opposed to a dirty and slippery surface and a less technically capable car. Generally you would expect to see those things translate into a car that is easier to drive fast and circuit difficulty is subjective and dependent on driving style.

Perhaps your style is well suited to that track and you do well there even though you consider it a more difficult track to master. The car's performance is always going to be a factor as are the variables in racing conditions and track, I think we have to take that as a given in a simulation.

You are then comparing the jump from a road car on road tyres (or semi slicks) into a full blown GT3 spec race car on slicks, designed, built and set up specifically to go fast around a circuit- sure it's a challenge but it's a different kind of challenge and although I've never driven a real Z4 GT3 and, in common with most of us who enjoy our virtual racing, likely never will, the general wisdom from real race drivers is that GT3 cars are actually much easier to drive fast than people seem to expect, because that is what they are designed and built to do. That's not to say you or I could jump in one and set records after a quick warm up lap, it's just that for experienced racing drivers, they provide every conceivable aid to going as fast as possible for those with the talent to exploit it. It's comparing apples to oranges, the cars may have a badge in common but that's pretty much it.

Whilst that might explain the actual difficulty of driving the car itself in the sim, I appreciate that what you are saying is that if there were actual linear difficulty progression from event to event, you would expect the criteria required to attain each level would be made more demanding each time. As you have discovered this isn't necessarily the way it works as each challenge is effectively presented in isolation meaning you never really know what you are going to get which could seem odd if you are used to, or expect, that gradual climb in difficulty from event to event.

I agree with you about the AI, and I accept too that in some people's eyes the career mode progression is perhaps flawed in some ways, I was not trying to claim otherwise, so ultimately we are not too much at odds with our feelings about the whole thing. The OP in this thread was opining the AI difficulty on Easy settings and all I was originally trying to argue when I first joined this thread was that it wasn't unreasonably overpowered or unbeatable - for the most part.

Maybe we should stop digging away at each other and get back to enjoying AC, which despite it's shortcomings I hope you are enjoying as much as me.

 

Time attacks are not very intuitive and not at all explained by the game. How easy or difficult they are if you do not know their arcane arts will be completely at random.

The reason noone slams them seems to be that the goals are low enough that people are likely to pass them just by screwing around on them once and be done with them.

Some poor souls even think you get points for driving fast. Imagine something as silly as that!

 

For an Englishman your English IS rather lacking but ok, here we go: doubt is a feeling not an assumption, the difficulty level comment is self supported BY THE FACT that i play on Alien and win every other event which meant that clearly a very small percentage, more than likely under 20% which is an estimate generally above the average percentage of people that play console racing games on the hardest settings in other titles otherwise they would not be so blindly oblivious to the problem like some others.

Alien difficulty, gold medal, you basically knew what I meant, your first language is English afterall isn't it? My mistake for being lost in the countless bugs i've found over the last week or so, they alone are starting to rival the list of bugs from every other game I think i've ever played.

That's about as far as I got through your post before I lost interest due to your lack of comprehension, what shocked me more was when you stated that you are infact English.

Not 100% sure what you are trying to say but I would like to see the person who does the first series final time attack first go on PS4, like I stated above I was only just passed silver after around ten attempts completed until the end, yet I destroy gold in every other time attack I have done so far.

 

Some guy on YouTube called Kattcool got 2nd place on the infamous BMW E30 Step1 race!
So I was wrong, it's not impossible afterall. Still hard as nails though, and much harder than any other race I've been in so far(in career) and definitely not 'easy' difficulty lol

 

That is because you think you get points and extra time for going fast, therefore your perceived difficulty is random and you had to roll the dice a few times before the correct face came up. You may think you had to practice it 10 times to get fast enough to pass, but that's not what happened.

The goal of the time attack in question is 3000 points, yet it is trivial to get 10000 points before even breaking into 1:10 laps. Let me explain the two things you need to know about the Time Attack mode:

1. Extra points awarded for spare time is almost nothing. Really, its like barely double digits if that.
2. The amount of time you get when you start a sector is the same amount you spent on that sector on the last lap, minus a tiny bit.

So if you go pedal to the metal from the start, and happen to get a really good time through the sectors, you get about the same amount of points as if you were just barely under the limit. The next time around the game remembers how fast you were and gives you just a little bit less time this lap, so if you were really fast you need to be even faster now! If you got some blistering times on lap 1, you'll almost certainly be game over by lap 3. The reason you passed on your 10th go was because you happened to be a bit faster on the later laps on that particular run, not because you drove faster overall.

At the same time, you could have been going 25-30mph and come in just under the limit, deliberately increasing your speed by a tiny amount each lap and slowing down before the line to ensure you enter the next sector just as the timer ticks over. You'll score almost exactly the same on each sector, but maximize your time you get next lap you enter that sector.

That way can go 10-20 laps and score 5 digits with one hand on the wheel, while spending most of your attention on watching youtube videos and forum-warrioring.

I have now ruined time attacks for you. Sorry!

 

God damn you!!!!
Nooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Some smooth agressive stuff there.

I checked and I do actually have a gold recorded on it. But I believe the various iterations of the tyre model have diminished the grip advantage the S1 had over the stock road cars back when it was created. Can't do it now without dropping the difficulty down below console levels.

 

Your English is very hard to understand, what is spare time in racing? What you're saying basically is time attack has nothing to do with real world time attacks? So you are saying I can get the medals just for going super slow then improving my time as I lap more? That's sounds quite ridiculous and what point does it serve in a sim?

The way I see it, the timer is there to push you to the next checkpoint to gain additional time to continue gaining points to eventually exceed the gold medal score, same with drifting. What you're saying is I can basically waste my time by doing a very slow lap followed by a moderately faster and so on. Pointless.

PC or PS4?

 

Ok that was the last straw, you unpleasant person!

 

Productive much? What are you even talking about? Maybe he should try google translate?

PC or console?

 

We have been saying that for years on the PC.

 

This 'sim' just keeps getting more sim by the day! So the flawed logic was originally pc concept from day one? That would be right...

 

You are an angry little snowflake, huh?
Anyways, not sure what a weird game mode has to do with the car physics, you know, the part of the game that actually makes it a sim.....

 

Angry, no, slightly disappointed, yeah. Much like the hordes of people that bought AC on console and feel somewhat lied to. So a racing sim that has broken and imaginary races is simulating racing is it? Last time I checked it said YOUR RACING SIMULATOR on the cover, i guess freerun drfiting and trackdays in unbalanced cars is simulation racing too right? I don't see it say DRIVING SIMULATOR anywhere on the cover, oh wait, that moniker belongs to the console king of just about every form of autosports. Good day sir. No reason to get all defensive with your pc troll buddies there mate, you mad your beloved is getting walked all over? Anyways i'm done with you guys, this game is falling into a deep pit with no return soon enough unless KS or 505 or whoever responsible can seriously pull their big boy pants up and get on to the serious issues in AC on console, otherwise it'll go back to where it came from the PC sim shadows that make little to no money, have little to visual appeal and get little to no attention again. Good day.

 

Good to see this thread is calming down!

I tried a bit of peacemaking last time so this time I'll just add a bit more fuel to the fire - the car setups on the console version are also different to the pc version, again setups look like a very old AC build (2014ish in my memory?). How much difference this makes to the times people can post etc I can't say yet for sure. Played back to back using the same cars, tracks, career mode challenges etc the console version feels much more tricky (tyre model on the console version??) on top of the already much more stringent medal times/AI ability. Not that data holds much sway in the ongoing willy waving contest.

Forza Apex plays exactly the same on pc as Forza 6 on Xbox One but at UHD quality, not that this has any relevance to the thread but we are way off beam already so why not just throw it in, someone might bite .

Right I have my popcorn ready, next installment please.

 

Well it couldn't get much worse, really.

Proper playground stuff with all the little digs.

*shakes head and tuts

 

Got a funny one for you, that fuel you added is actually helpful experienced information!! Have KS ever tweaked the AI on PC(I am genuinely asking these questions by the way)? Did they make equivalent tweaks with the different builds? It could be possible we have an AI system not matching the physics. Food for thought. Didn't I see you were from the xbox forums thought and not pc? Also yes the tuning, I had someone reading out a PC tune to me whilst I was streaming on twitch a couple days ago, we quickly realised the settings can't be matched which he found odd.

 

I'm on both platforms and I'm really surprised by the quick degeneration into platform wars. I'm neutral I enjoy AC and want it work on all the platforms. I like the VR experience on the PC but at the same time have good mates to race with on the Xbox, you know with that new fangled ability to talk to each other in real time, I guess the pc will catch up one day. The Xbox version currently has far too many issues and needs to be fixed.

Yes the AI has been updated on pc several times.