Quality of sim can be measured by how ruthlessly it exposes driver's lack of talent

this smoke belongs in a vapor engine locomotive train heheheh

 

I find it easier to drift and slide at high speeds rather than low speeds in real life. The only factor is more fear at higher speeds.

 

Not sure about the mod but a lot of drift cars use some special drift tires which are usually unrealistic (like one rf1 mod way back couldn't make the cars driftable because the tires had too much grip drop off so their solution was to move the peak slip angle to something like 30 degrees...).

I don't want to derail the thread but the issue is not about how driftable the cars are but how it is to save a car when it gets really really sideways at high speeds. Dropping the clutch at corner entry at 80% of racing speeds and sticking your hand out from the side window while holding the official dorifto flag is not exactly the same thing as driving the yellowbird at the limit through the last corner in zandvoort and getting really really loose on corner exit and not needing to even lift.

Ffb in rf2 is marvellous and ffb in ac is very good but when the rear gets loose the cars handle very very differently with regards to what it takes to get it back. In ac it kinda hits this angle at which the rotation just stop. In rf2 there just is no such rotation threshold. If the car is going around it is going around. In ac there were some big changes in 1.3 (load sensitivety, tire flex change along with some variables not being used anymore and heat changes). It is not impossible that something something happened which can create some kind of issue that is hard to detect or measure. I really hope the issue is some day found because fixing that issue (could be one or more issue) can only make ac better.

 

Honestly, but in rF2 I've never experienced this fatalistic: "If the car is going around it is going around".
Overall, in AC and rF2 I feel a plausible grip variation when sliding, definitely not the iRacing's ON/OFF joke.

 

On what track/corner, what car/tires? Any example? Maybe in real life people don't try it because scared. Tell me, the person who slide (sliding a car at high speed isn't unrealistic), did that person in game managed to pull a big slide at very high speed on his first attempt without crashing? Because that is important to know, I don't care if that person managed to pull a big slide that in your eyes looks unrealistic, but he needed 5 tries before he managed it. In real life you don't have 5 tries, so you're likely to not try it.

I don't take it as AC car physics or tires are at the moment 100% realistic and that's the end of it, probably more improvements will come in the future.

But if AC is too easy and real life is too hard, what do you say of this?

 

You just have too much grip when sliding, it's extremely easy to keep your line and make adjustments, especially at high speed. The tyres just feel invincible. Then add to that the feeling where at a certain angle slides seem to stop and you're just holding anything without much effort, yeah, doesn't feel right at all.

It all strokes the average driver in a good way of course, hence why so many people like that. Makes it seem like they're better than they are. Seeing how some drive and the kind of thing they actually get away with, nah. No way. If it was like that in real life, coupled with the "fear factor" the average person has, no one would ever wreck out.

I'm not even trying here, in real life this would be a "gutter moment". Something you'd be glad you survived basically. Here it's buisness as usual. Nothing special, didn't require any effort. The car just stayed there with minimal inputs. Of course there could be way more angle, but that wasn't the intention (and yes, I wore a helmet, yolo)

(1:56, apparently this thing embeds on it's own)


Anyway, at the end of the day it's my opinion, there's no data in the world (yet) that will confirm one stance or the other. It's all butt feeling (well, hand/eye).

 

Talking about the slide at min 2:00 in your video? The car tyres were barely turned. How much the steering wheel was turned isn't a reflex on how much the tyres were. And the car had a very small slide angle. I thought you were talking of 180º stuff at 220kmh, although certain cars/tires/drivers might be able to pull it off. I really don't see what's unrealistic in that part of your video.

 

If you can't get what I'm talking about then there's no point in me even trying. As such, read my last sentence.

 

You're clearly exaggerating. That slide you pulled off was due to the car losing some rear grip in a high speed bend, with some slight elevation changes in that section. The car had a small angle slide.

If you say the v5 tyre model of the bmw 1m are a bit more forgiving then they should be.. maybe, who knows. Will see the updates in the next ac version. But even so, your slide at 1:56 doesn't ring any alarm bells in any part of the world.

You want to compare your very small angle slide at 200kmh with this medium-high angle slides, also at 180-200kmh, but in real life?

 

'The more difficult it is, the more realistic it is' lines of argument have been a bane of sim racing debate for a long time now.

 

For me this is kinda funny, because you've been saying in the last months that AC is just easy, pulling a slide and recovering at big speed is easy.. but now I'm seeing you're basing those thoughts on a very small angle slide where you turned a bit the steering wheel. In fact it can be relatively easy for experienced-skilled drivers, and depending on the car/tires as well. But not for the average joe.
I would actually like for you to explain more, I don't want to simply base my posts on interpretations of what you mean or might mean, like when you said "if you can't get what I'm talking about then there's no point in me even trying".

If you want to see some Nordschleife drifting, with traffic in the middle.


This is how it looks from the outside.


Did you see how much he put the car at an angle and how much steering degrees he gave to the steering wheel? In the example from your video, it really is easy enough what you pulled, because what you pulled wasn't dangerous. In real life you'd be more scared because you have the perception you are in the world, affected by g-forces, and not sitting at home on a chair through a monitor.
Pretty sure more people are able to drive a lotus 98t in a sim at high speeds, or even a modern f1, than what it would require from your legs, arms, torso, neck, and mind to do the same in real life.


edit. I saw later in your video at 2:37 that you made a bigger angle drift. That looked nice. But perfectly realistic imo, especially when the bmw 1m is prone to sliding. I guess you were using street tyres and no TC, but even with semislicks. This car requires plenty of counter steering, a bit like ruf yellowbird. And that moment at 1:56 was also just counter steering.

 

The difference is that when you are drifting you drive slower because you are using less grip because at high slip angles the tires provide less grip. This means if you take the corner at the same speed without being sideways you have some extra grip that is not being used. This gives you some safety net.

At racing speeds you try to extract the maximum out of the tires which means you are going through the corner as fast as the tires allow. When at such speed you get sideways you can no longer keep that line because you just don't have enough grip anymore. You don't have any safety net left in your tire grip. Your safety net is the width of the road and how much the car slows down enough before your tire drops on the grass/dirt.

In ac you can get really sideways at racing speeds and not lose much if any grip. The key here is "racing speed". Racing speed here not only means you are going as fast as you can but it also implies there is no grip left for getting super sideways. Drifting videos are irrelevant because nobody is talking about drifting. People are talking about high speed slides at racing speeds being way too easy to catch and control.

 

Well but his high speed slide was at a low side angle, only some counter steer was needed, at 1:56 in his video. The bmw 1m is also a softer car and safer. William is already a very experienced sim racer for many years. At this point, driving cars in sims is an easy nature for him, but he shouldn't confuse that as AC in this case being not realistic just because he finds it permissive while driving, more so when talking of cars like bmw 1m. If he is too used to how iracing behaves and then switches to AC, there's a difference between how much you can maneuver cars.
And v5 tyre model is a transition tyre model, but even no matter what will be updated, the bmw 1m remains a soft and safe car.

But for example the bmw 1m S3 at Vallelunga high speed corner just after the new lap begins, is quite tricky and easy to lose the car there. Try that out.

edit. Another thing I remembered now at 1:56, before that small rear slip where you counter steered, you braked down from 6th to 5th gear. And there you regained some tire grip, after the elevation change. But still, a soft car, mildly sticky tires, plus regaining some grip after braking or coasting a bit, the car had all the momentum to keep going forward and make it through safely, even if there was a small angle slip where counter steer was somehow needed.

 

Not exactly. Tires don't lose much lateral grip at higher slip angles (vs. the 'optimal' one). Tyre measurements show it's as little as 1-2% on certain cambers, if you stay within twice the peak (ie. peak of 10, less than 20 degree slide). And it's never going to be more than 10% at any angle period. Purely sliding, not powersliding - the combined slip in drifting *can* reduce your lateral grip significantly. They do continue to gain more drag (wheels pointing perpendicular to your direction of motion = slip angle is slowing you down, so your laptime suffers) but it's not "you lose the line" it's "you slow down if you stay on the line" so if there's room to compromise and take a slower line but lose less speed, it's worth letting the car drift to the outside of the track.

So it's not like you have to be at 80% of race pace to do high speed slides... you just have to slow the car 1-2% (which is literally like a quarter second of less throttle)

 

It is not just the tires but aero as well. My point really was that if you are going at racing speeds through a corner and the rear steps out and you lose 2% of your tire grip and 2% downforce It basically means you don't have enough traction in the car to continue at your trajectory at racing speeds. Basically if you lose 4% of grip your corner radius increases to 104%.

This slide can be crudely divided into two phases. The initial phase where you first lose little bit of grip when the rear steps out. At this moment your trajectory is changed but your tires are on the limit. Trajectory (trajectory=corner radius) changes becuase you don't have enough grip to stay on your previous trajectory. There is no extra traction buffer left there. Even if the car straightened itself out in magically you'd still need to slow down to make the corner because the more time it takes to get the car back in straight line the tighter your trajectory becomes as you are running out of road.

At that moment it is all about controlling your momentum. Bring down your speed while keeping your trajectory at such direction that you stay on the track. Luckily when the tire is sliding at an angle the tire produces friction that also slows you down (just like it slows you down if get too sideways on corner exits). Eventually you slow down enough for phase two.

Second phase is the catching the slide and bringing the rear back in. This happens when the speed has dropped enough that the tire while sliding has that extra buffer to rotate the car back straight. As your speed slows down it allows tighter trajectory. So you can choose to take tighter trajectory or keep your current trajectory to straighten the car.

Now depending on the difference in tire grip at different slip angles (and also aero) defines how fast the car straightens out. If the grip difference is extremely small like it is in ac this yaw motion happens very slowly and progressively. In a sim like iracing there is more difference so the yaw rotation is much more abrupt (although iracing has tire temp issues too which makes this issue worse). This is because the front to rear balance in lateral grip creates a yaw moment on the car. This moment rotates the car into the corner (oversteer), doesn't affect change (small moment) or straightens the car (understeer). The smaller the forces on the rear the bigger the difference in forces when comparing front and rear and the bigger the yaw moment=more oversteer. The smaller the forces at rear the more extra grip you have on the front.

To keep this yaw moment close to 0 you need to countersteer (or lock your brakes). Your trajectory is thus limited by the rear tire grip. If you countersteer too much your trajectory opens up. You will regain grip but you also go off track. If you countersteer too little the yaw moment rotates your car around and you spin. When you have too little countersteer you have bigger force at the front than at rear. This creates a yaw moment that causes you to oversteer more. Another thing to notice is that the bigger the grip difference at higher slip angles (and longitudinal slip as well) the more precise you need to be with your countersteering.

In early rfactor this difference could be up to 30% which made catching slides impossible. This meant that you need to be incredible precise with your steering. One degree to one direction or other can make a difference between a save and crash. And even if you catch the first one you need to be super fast to prevent the tank slapper that will hit you next. It was so difficult to do that it was down to luck catching it if the rear stepped out too much. So people invented this technique where they press the brake and throttle at the same time. This meant that fronts locked while rears still rotate. It also locked the rear diff. These things creates a yaw moment where the front has extremely small lateral force. The tires are not just sliding but they are sliding while not turning at all because the locked tire has no ability to steer. So your trajectory is a straight line. But your rear tires have more grip than the fronts. This means there is strong yaw moment that is working towards straightening the car out. And between the rear tires the rear diff locking also adds to that yaw moment. This yaw moment is big because the differences in grip of sliding tire vs free rolling tire is very big. So the car straightens itself very easily.

This of course does not work if the grip difference of locked and free rotating tires are small. But the diff locking effect is now stronger because even at high slip angles the rears have lots of grip.

The way I feel it is that in ac there really is no phase 1 at all. When the rear steps out you just countersteer. There is so little loss of grip that your trajectory doesn't really change. But similarly sliding tire at high slip angles has so much grip that it also slows you down very efficiently and fast. But the small difference in sliding tire vs locked tire also means that these slides are super easy to catch and control. And last and least this small grip difference also makes electric diffs in ac to work really really well. Even in slide the tires have enough grip to create yaw moment to to control the yaw motion of the car. If you drive road version ferrari 458 or mclaren mp4 you notice how easy it is to launch these cars out of corners in big slides. Then drive the sls which doesn't have edl and the cars are more loose on exit because the edl is not adding locking becuase there is no edl.

 

IMO on iRacing is where it feels the best, if it wasn't from the exaggerated loss of grip due to the tyres temp peaking and making the tyres die after a slide (less on cars that don't run slicks), especially noticeable once you've saved one and end up in another, or just normal cornering. The initial phase feels so much better tho. I don't understand people who say you can't save any slides on there quite frankly... However I agree that on some cars it's not so good, like something weird is happening and the car just lets go. The Z4 GT3 is by far the worse IIRC. Most other cars are fine tho., The GT1's, other GT3's, Mustang, MX-5, Solstice, V8SC, etc... And clearly I'm not the only one who thinks that, although people who agree with me I consider to be pretty good. Maybe there's a correlation there ?

 

When you have will to master a race car there are many simulators. Earlier, the only way to taste a racing beast was put your pitiful *** into the driver seat on real race car (impossible for 99,999 % of population). Today, if you realy want to master driving skills, you only have to have a plenty of time and bulk of will. We live in golden era! But stil 99,999% of population does not reach master skills in driving of the race car... (even this virtual one). I love this world, in the matter of things, from thousands years allways the same...

 

Exactly! The fear factor in the simulator does not exists. There's no G force! Feel of steepness? no way! No smell of overheated brakes. Adrenals does not pump so much of adrenaline... And so on... That's the point! Watch this (from around some years ago )
http://www.streetfire.net/video/top-gear-nsx-laguna-seca_208766.htm

 

That... has nothing to do with it, lol.

Also, that Top gear video is terrible.

 

Video is terrible, but content is in topic IMHO.