Tacticle Tranducers/Bass Shakers and your optimal build

Yeah, "good vibrations" are all about immersion, man (recalling the 70's).

 

I am a hobbyist so I don't mind putting in time for researching such or trying to get increased understanding of it all.

A long term self-goal is to discover and build the best tactile and audio experience in a cockpit I can. It's part self-challenge as a hobby including having a cockpit eventually totally built around achieving that.
My own perhaps over criticalness is due to seeking such high standard its not driven by seeking to be a ****, lol. Although I can tell how it may appear to most of you with my poor interaction or responses.

Dean, perhaps has an idea of what different units performance can bring, what I would say is the depth, power and detailing I can get with my current temporary build is certainly not what I would say is a distraction.
Although if I want to have bumps feel like a Dayton Puc or strong enough to massage or move internal organs its possible.

 

I haven't found anything that can be used to help with the driving.
It would be good to have a brake lock-up effect but I don't think AC provides that data.

 

Out of interest for continued research.
Can any of you in future create a new profile add whatever effects to a CM you normally like and then Auto Tune it sharing results. Im prepared to work with anyone to see if its possible to take that and better it with manual tuning or if the end result is worth the bother?

The reason is that with higher end units or my own perspective I find the Auto Tune results, in changes to settings, are too conservative...

As an assumption by how it is coded to operate it may seek the min and max amplitude being generated from (submitted lap) and reduce the intensity also reducing possibility of clipping.
This feature has to have the allowance for different cars with varying physics and stronger/weaker responses with the profile being used as well. Yet it has no ability or option to select a tier or performance level of hardware being used to accommodate different units abilities.

For me I seek optimal performance for at least my fave cars being driven such is my own interest in better learning about the effects and settings, not to spend money on quality hardware to only get potentially 75% benefit from it.
Just as I am sure some of you with expensive wheels or pedals wouldnt be that overjoyed in getting 75% performance from those.

 

I stopped using "F/R Suspension Textures" because of the loud vibes every time you exit to the pits. I think it's because AC drops the car from a height.

I'm using these effects now:-



"Front Suspension Bump Surges" gives me that low level rumble from the road imperfections. I keep this effect quite subtle so you can just about feel the road.
"Front Suspension Bumps" gives me the big road bumps and kerbs only, so these two effects work well together.

(I don't use Auto Tune because I set my amp to cut off frequencies above 60Hz and simvibe won't know that).

 

@Mr Latte I know you have a very advance rig set up, so I am curious to have your opinion on one aspect of SIM driving that I think has changed now that we have VR. You mention in your post that one of your goal is "including having a cockpit eventually totally built around achieving that." Is it not a thing of the past, since now with VR we already feel like we are in the cockpit. To me it also kills the whole having different wheels and external dashboard since we already have all that in VR.
The whole tactile and shaking aspect is of course now more important than ever on the other side.

 

@Stefan Sparco

What slope/filter do you use for your low pass crossover, 6dB or something steep like 48 dB?
Or do you use PEQ for gradually reducing 60-100Hz via, negative dB for manually set Hz like (70/80/90/100) getting weaker and weaker and weaker.

(at this point most of you reading this, are like what ?)

Not sure if you know but you can set your crossover filtering to do the opposite of what your currently doing.
Instead of feeling what you want to feel with 10Hz - 60Hz this would let you feel what Simvibe is outputting for the 60Hz-100Hz + that your currently cutting.

I found it a good way to learn and understand the benefits or loss with the higher frequencies but its very much personal preference and down to the units being used with your own installation.
Different materials reverberate at different frequencies, so you may find some detailing is possible over the 60Hz but specific Hz themselves need cut not perhaps all above 60Hz.

Not sure if you already tried this but it is worth doing.

-------------

Thank you....
First I am excited for VR but just do not see it yet as matured enough technically or in general with all mainstream developers. I also like the idea of 4K and HDR but again how long will it be before the PC and a sim makes great usage of these. Forza and GT Sport will do before PC no doubt.

Apologies if misunderstood by how I mentioned this.
Currently there is not a single cockpit built and designed to fully utilise tactile immersion from the ground up.
Many cockpits have options to apply and install tactile to them but not built specifically for it.
Having had experience with tactile units over the last almost 10 years I have owned and used
Dayton Puc, Aura Pro, Reckhorn, Mini Concert, Mini lfe, Mini lfe/se, BK gamer, BK Advance, BK-LFE, Clark Synthesis T209, T239, T329, T429 so I know and understand what they can deliver in immersion and general performance.

What I have been doing via d.i.y  is to have a build that has been tested, built and designed to not only install the tactile/kickers in the optimal positions but also the build/frame design itself and isolation will maximise their performance.
Much more powerful units need and require additional thought into such design.

My own test build has seen at least 5 revisions thus far and its still not done. The aim is to have a build that will enhance the stereo presentation and can deliver bumps with high levels of energy which feel much more realistic, not just like little thuds the smaller units produce.
As you are likely already aware from posts in other places I probably was the first to talk about and test the inuke DSP amplifier benefits with tactile over 3 years ago. One of the first things I stated in a Simvibe thread as it was announced was how a single unit could handle so many effects efficiently. From my own curiosity and testing, I found using 2 units combined rather than one on each channel could be used to deliver a much better result over a standard unit. Additionally their is no perfect one model solution, (even those costing $549 each) they all have pros/cons but what happens when you combine the best pros together and can control or remove the issues of the cons?

This is what I do with this hobby, I seek and push to find the limits I can extract from it and in this latest chapter has been gaining much more understanding of Simvibe.
I guess to many here and the same in other places they dont grasp my perspective or own goals but maybe Im just odd anyways.

I don't say this to boast but to show my own interest into "tactile immersion" as a hobby in itself.


How good can tactile immersion be?
When someone like Andrew shares an opinion like he just recently stated, that tactile isn't that immersive or it can be a distraction and states using his preference and opinion for a high-end powerful wheel for immersion as giving more feedback.
Thats all fine and well, it's his choice. I'm not arguing with him or telling him what he should do but my answer to any of you is why try to compare or use the performance he/you may be experiencing from generally very often the most common or smallest entry level kicker product for tactile immersion as any basis to what is really possible from it?

From a technical standpoint, he is using a very high-end product in one respect and the lowest in a range for the other.
I am not against the abilities of a good wheel and what it brings just offering my own opinion on his evaluation based on his own immersion experiences.

I have been working on 2 guides for the last 3 months.
One is generally on Simvibe itself the effects and the setting options and covers other things too that will enable people to better grasp associated audio terms.
A FULL detailing of effects/settings and charts to better illustrate them in simple laymans terms. It already is close to 30 pages.






The 2nd or other guide is specifically for this title and why I registered for these forums.
The resaon being I see it as important to base usage of the effects and settings in accordance with each titles own telemetry data/physics that it may use and based on the effects supported in Simvibe. Not just rely on a general guide for all titles....


Here lies the problem.....

I no longer own popular models like the BASS PUMP/ ADX / AURA PRO/ MINI LFE so its hard to know how to make suggestions for these in regards settings for manual tuning that are good.
Additionally to discover settings with effects or combinations groups of effects (like some here are wanting to know and people new to it always seek)

This is why I often ask for input from you guys on settings or general feedback but its seems most are reluctant to share or properly do group tests with combined and shared opinions being discussed for the greater benefit of each user but also others now or in future.

I really am in two minds whether to drop the whole idea and just concentrate on my own build. Have already pulled back from offering assistance or advice on other peoples builds @ GTP which I will no longer be doing.


Thats the lot......

 

Mr Latte, I have been following your posts for a number of years starting on GT Planet in the hardware section. You first introduced me to the term "tactile" to describe using low frequency transducers mounted to a sim rig to add to the experience. I really appreciate your knowledge and willingness to share it with the community.

I used this information to build tactile into my rig and I am very happy with the results. My approach has been mid range, I have utilized decent components but have not gone for the best. I am satisfied with the results.

I left GT Planet when I moved from a console to a PC based system and selected Asseto Corsa as my simulator of choice. One big benefit of this move was SimVibe. I liked it so much I went from a two transducer set up to a four transducer set up.

I really like SimVibe but have no interest in trying to fine tune SimVibe,. After I understood how to utilize shared profiles I downloaded a few and have kept using the one I liked the best. Obviously I would like better but have no compelling reason to do more.

Once again thank for your contributions to the "tactile universe" and I'm glad to have you posting on the AC Forum.

I await reading you "SimVibe FXXL Unofficial Guide".

 

@Mr Latte
You are doing good work to produce such guides to aid typical tactile users with greater knowledge and understanding; the amount of testing, analyzing and experimentation required is quite extensive, time-consuming and costly. I think most of us would rather just reach for the "easy-button" and return to our Sim-Racing bliss but, as you say - it's your hobby and your passion for it shows.

Unfortunately, my time has been rather limited of late so I haven't been able to dig into tactile-related testing but, I do appreciate your efforts to gather and share information as it's something that has been sorely lacking up to now. My tactile setup development has been largely inspired by your informative threads in various forums and while I'm grateful to have the setup I do now, I'd love to make improvements, even if only through soft-tuning.

In regard to SC4; SimXperience has hinted at new features being in development so I'm looking forward to what they add (new engine-vibes for EM for one). Have you been in touch with them regarding your work? I know that they make mention of developing some guides as well but, it seems the "engineer" language they often use is lost on most users, myself included.

 

Thanks to those for support, it's appreciated.
You guys enjoy your racing while I continue to mess around, lol

I have a video uploading for you regards "Suspension Textures".
Will add it here later when done.

 

Cool, thanks. I was using the steepest cut off in my amp for 60Hz.

Thinking about it, I probably don't need to have a cut off in my amp now. The "Suspension Textures" effect didn't have any frequency controls in Simvibe but "Suspension Bumps" and "Suspension Surges" both do.
So I'm going to have another play with these effects without the amp cut off (I'll probably set it to 120Hz).

 

Okay Stefan, thanks for sharing some of your own settings.

Use the inuke DSP for benefits it can bring for tuning. You can set this to only allow through what Hz you want to feel, for whatever tuning you are doing, regardless of what Simvibe effects are on or using. Say you want to only tune 40Hz-60Hz for more bass response you can then do this and apply equalisation exactly for those values and like you showed with your setup do it in real-time during a practice to feel the difference your settings in EQ are making.

Keep in mind Simvibe Output Mixer does not output effects as nice little packets of data or effects. This is data converted into audio, so all frequencies of all effects on each channel are combined for the tactile/shaker to use.

This is one reason I am trying to research using different Hz for different effects. The question is what effects should or work better with what Hz.

Textures are not "Tone Generated" based so we do not get to control the Hz for them.

I have found "Textures" rather tricky to tame with my Clark units but I mainly have been testing (in-depth) with only this title. (YAY!!!)
Not sure how Mini lfe owners have found them to operate?

There does seem to be an issue with these Suspension Textures, regards leakage or faulty filtering of the raw data from the telemetry.
What I see, tells me the issue is with the Rear Textures but also as you will see in the video there is another oddity.

Here is an example of settings to try.

Suspension Textures:
Agressive intensity via volume and signal condition issue with rear channel?

The Rear channels it seems are active with not even moving.


These settings seem to help balance the rear set to match better the front.
(Notice similar colours etc in the spectrum analyser)



Video coming..... (available later this evening)
This highlights clipping issue even activity from pit menu screen.

 

@Mr Latte

Much as Dean Ogurek, your posts, primarily from GT Planet, led me to investigating and investing in tactile feedback for sim racing.

I started with a BK Gamer2 but wasn't completely happy with it, once the initial, wow this is cool, wore off.

I now have SC4, 4 X BK300 (shakemycouch.com) each BK has its own amp with the transducers mounted on each corner of my rig. The transducers are mounted on BK plates that the rig rests on. Through the span from front to back I mounted a rubber isolator to help support the rig as well as facilitate shaking.

I'm quite happy with the setup and the limited amount of SC4 tuning I've done.

I'd be more than happy to help out with some of the testing you'd like to see done. For the moment I have time.

Shoot me a pm if you'd like to discuss further.

Cheers

 

PM sent and thanks,

BKA 300 was my first ever shaker/tactile.

Others that are interested are welcome to be joined to the PM chat if they do want to commit time to helping or some tests.
I think its best that I reduce input in this thread now. It's meant to be about optimal builds and not specific issues or effects and my usual tendency to get over active on the subject.

 

Hi Rodney

In general i don't use textures because it's an effect that's very hard to tune with my mini LFE's and often causes a lot of bottoming out when hitting the curbs or going offtrack.

Never got the textures right, so in the end i stopped using them

The ART-SLA4 (CM) will be replaced by two Inuke1000 DSP, but they are out of stock atm. When they arrive i will finally see if i can make sense of those extensive DSP features you so often talked about.

 

@Stefan Sparco
Finally got this for you.
No audio but just watch, it shows what might fix this issue for you and if using the settings shown above in the screenshot. If you wouldn't mind, please come back later with an update if it helped.

This shows that "Suspension Textures" currently are active even before the track.
Also an issue with causing clipping. I think perhaps needing to be fixed regards their filtering or internal settings/workings.

 

@Mr Latte
Nice, the video does a good job of demonstrating what you are talking about. Interestingly, I have always reduced the output - both the master and sub-settings but, I've not noticed the behavior you demonstrated here; well done and certainly - something for us to watch for.

 

Feel free people, to see if this is accurate.

It shows how effects operation are not based on specific roles surfaces/bumps.
Instead on the cars physics data, track telemetry data and your user settings or in most cases also reactions from wheel/steering inputs.

Vertical effects use the vertical (Y Axis), hence why to steering or horizontal input using the (X Axis) they are different. Also general sensitivity plays a big part to the effects operation.
I showed you how crazy sensitive suspension bumps are at 99%. I suggest trying them at 94-96% as it makes a big difference.

Road Texture is another that is VERY sensitive, it even operates at standstill from steering input and is advisable to try different sensitivity values for it. (see also the clip indicator with this effect and using 0dB volume). I beleive this texture based effect also has faults with the filtering it is excessively strong also like the Suspension Textures. Reduce volume but put the Signal Conditioning waaay down.

 

Testing continues....
L/R Stereo example:

 

I've always felt that AC tactile output has some spikes at times that could be out of place; when compared to that of Pcars, Pcars output seems to produce more rounded signals that seem to sync better to the FFB but, it's not easy to analyze without using the right tools. It might be an interesting comparison to make.