Who's at Fault? - Discussing Racecraft and Incidents

Yeah, it's obvious that he's flipping the etiquette and rules upside down.

Generally, if you see the car behind is clearly faster the wisest option would be to let them go. It really is best for everyone. Sometimes you defend for a lap or 2 and then you get some breathing air as the car behind makes a tiny mistake, less pressure makes you focus again and you keep the gap at a constant distance, but if you see that the car behind is glued to your rear bumper and you struggle to hold them off for a few laps, let them pass. You lose tons of time by fighting and defending, the driver behind gets more upset as he gets pressure from cars that catch up and you risk being taken out, even by mistake (sometimes also intentionally), race is over for you just because you wanted to hold on to your position.

A tiny lift before the braking zone makes sure nobody loses too much time, your risk of being taken out is gone and who knows what happens at the front where people probably think fighting is the best option.

 

While I do agree the devil in me is the most clueless person on these boards when it comes to racecraft so best not to interact with that nonsense.
I do not agree though, that moving out of the way for a faster car is the right thing to do. I have won races where I kept a faster car behind. Holding position is part of racing, and that is the fun in fighting.
And if I am the faster guy, I don't want someone to just let me pass. I want to race. If I wanted to hotlap I wouldn't be online.
I increase my skill when I am forced to fight or defend, and some of the best races come from this.

 

Every race has its own story. A zillion variables make every race different, and of course there are also instances where you can be successful if you defend. Which does also mean that I have also been successful by letting a faster and more aggressive driver by, who then took another car out, both were in the ditch, I was still in the race and drove by.

My advice is the safe option out of many, I have also defended from cars behind and kept my position. Ideally you read the race as it unfolds and then you decide based on the many different variables like race length, your position, track conditions etc.etc.
As I said, it is everyone's right to do so, and if you're on a track where overtaking is difficult like Brands Hatch and Zandvoort you have a good chance to keep your position. But. You have to rely on the other driver to not take you out.

Basically, what is the goal of racing? Winning of course, maybe a podium, and sometimes having a good clean race feels like no win could compensate that. If you're among the leading pack you want to stay with the leading pack for a chance of a podium or a win. Fighting and defending loses you tons of time, they drive away into the distance, you might've successfully defended your position, but the podium is gone, plus the cars behind catch up and make everything more complicated.

Imho holding your position is part of racing but sometimes you have to drive strategically different. Sometimes people even try to give a signal to the car in front that they have no intention to fight, make a move or whatever, so there would be no need to defend and lose tons of time. You can drive away from the pack behind and make a move later on if the moment is there. That is just my interpretation. You don't have to fight and defend all the time. Sometimes you have to slow down a bit to go faster.

 

Curiously, my view is diametrical opposite, I face each race, either starting last or in pole, with the goal of gaining a place rather than defending.

For instance, very recently I had a race where throughout the race I was in 2nd, the first was ahead from 1.5 seconds to 0.5 seconds (advantaged gained at race start) and the 3rd was behind me around 0.5 to 0.0 seconds (yeah, right on top).
I was aware that 3rd was slightly faster than me in overall lap time (around 0.2), but slower in some sections, and yet it never crossed my mind to defend from third but always to push to close the gap and try to fight for 1st.
Near the race end, I missed a gear change into turn in (that happens to ), and with it went slow enough to lose 2nd place, finishing 3rd, but the aim was always to push ahead.
Even if racing in first, with the 2nd on my tail, my thought is to push harder to try to break the tail rather than defend the position.

 

Exactly, that is what you call race craft , picking your fights and as you say sometimes delaying a fight until you are both clear of the slower overambitious bunch behind.

 

Let's not forget, this is all just theory, in practice the story is often quite different and outright chaos. I fail more often than I'm willing to admit and make silly mistakes, so it's not like I'm in the position to lecture anyone here
A race, even if it's 'just' 30 minutes is such a dynamic and chaotic process, there can't be an advice that fits for everyone. Imagine you're in second and want to signal to the car ahead that you're not going to attack in the next braking zone, so you flash your lights but the guy misunderstands and thinks you're just applying page 5 of the rule book 'How to confuse your opponent' and starts defending like crazy. xD

 

Hi folks,
I‘d like to have your opinion on that:



Thx
Oortael

 

Boils down to,... who's corner is it ?

Or,... both ?

 

BMW was "ahaed" IMO and had the right to the racing line. Overtaking in that chicane is a death sentence LOL

 

Agree with the BMW being ahead, absolutely no doubt, but just how much does a car have to be "ahead",... to be allowed to come across like it did ?

Also agree, the odds of that incident happening there, was pretty damn good, especially an outside pass.

 

Was talked above about backing out, defending, and attacking, well, this last case is a clear situation where the overtaken car should back out for the chicane.
The car in front had the spot but, as important as well, the overtaken car has no advantage whatsoever that can capitalise to regain the position, so any move will only compromise any chances to regain the place lost.
One thing is to be combative, another is to be a kamikaze, which is what is seen above.
To overtake either an advantage is built or an opportunity is seized due to a mistake from a driver ahead.
This case is only a forced attempt to try to hang on in a clearly disadvantageous position, rather than to build momentum to be in a better position further ahead.

 

So your opinion is that the car on the inside was "at fault", of causing the accident ?

The inside car maintained his inside line, and the BMW came across and made contact.

 

That's certainly a situation you don't want to be in as a driver, especially if you are on the inside. There are places on a track where it makes no sense to overtake, the chicane at the Nürburgring is one of those place. Another similar place is T5 at Laguna Seca, the left kink that leads up the hill towards the Corkscrew. If you're on the inside and insist on overtaking there you're basically asking for trouble.
If you're on the outside and you see the other car is committed to this madness you should consider to back out if you want to keep racing. That's why I think both cars are at fault. No one gives in, both lose.

 

I pretty much agree with your philosophy, a thinking man's way to look at situations like this, except I would not place the blame at 50-50%.

And not sure I would have made the right decision in the heat of the battle, if I was the inside car.

 

Yeah, people often have a split second to decide what the next move should be, but if you know that the chicane is coming up with that huge kerb on the inside and a huge BMW on the outside it should be clear that it's not going to end well, with the premise of course that you want to keep racing.
Imo the BMW is to blame because he tries hang around the outside but there is another huge kerb in the second part of the chicane. Even if the BMW isn't that easy to unsettle, that kerb launches everything in the air. The most important thing to consider is though, there is no space for both cars in the chicane. That's why they touch before any kerb comes into play. It might not be completely impossible but I wouldn't want to risk it.

 

The BMW clearly had a better exit from T11, reason why was able to pass the McLaren at T12.
Heading to the chicane, the BMW was ahead and on the best line to approach it. The best the Mclaren manage to get was the front wheel aside the rear wheel of the BMW, therefore not close enough to challenge the corner entry.
Adding to that, the Mclaren was on the wrong side of track to tackle the chicane, substantially narrowing the track space to make the corner in good conditions.

Without any car around, that line, by itself, already would cause a significant time loss to make the chicane and handle the kerbs and, at worst, would cause to miss the chicane altogether.
Yet, very optimistically, braked even later than the BMW, carrying even more speed than the car ahead which was in the better line. Consequently, the Mclaren tapped the rear left side of the BMW causing an unnecessary incident.

The correct approach from the Mclaren would have been to stuck behind the BMW, in the good line, take the chicane as best as possible, concentrate to have a good exit from the last corner and then challenge the BMW at T1, where a possible position could be regained.

 

FAULT

In the 1st image, its obvious that the BMW is coming across,... with already a cars width of track to the BMW's right.
2nd image clearly shows the BMW not leaving ANY track for the inside car, THAT is what causes the contact.

Every thing else that happened BEFORE the contact, is irrelevant when assigning FAULT.

 

Yeah, and last year at Silverstone it was also Max fault when he went into the barriers (and I’m no fan of Max, not at all).

Just to put it in perspective using a real life case , where it is not the car ahead that secured the line for the corner that has to refrain from using that line but the car behind that either has to put himself in the position to challenge the corner (so, not behind but alongside), and, if not in position to challenge the corner, then has to refrain from using the line at his will and manage to drive near the other car.

The reference to what happened before the incident is relevant for the context of the situation.

Edit: by the way, Ferrari fan here, so pole, fastest lap and 1-2 today is amazing after so many years suffering

Edit2: take a look at Ocon words about his incident today with Schumacher

 

FAULT
How do you determine when a car along side has secured the line for the corner ?

Completely beside, almost completely beside, sorta beside ?

AND,... you do realize that there is more than one time zone on this planet, so please think about that when announce the results of a F1 race,... plus, surprisingly,... some people have the ability to RECORD the race, and then watch it when suitable for them.

Maybe Ferrari will achieve something this year, without cheating.

 

Just want to make clear that I think both are to blame. In my last post it looks like I'm blaming the BMW. I just wanted to explain why I blame the BMW as well.
It doesn't matter if you're on the correct line for the next chicane, the McLaren chose to make it complicated, the BMW has to react to that and back out. The McLaren would've have either launched in the air and parked directly in the pit lane as it probably wouldn't have been able to make the corner safely.