Whos fault is it?

Ive never heard such silly rules sorry, please can you show me any race series that has those rules of your written down. If its not a written rule anywhere then its just something you have made up, I think maybe a destruction derby series would have those but no proper race series.

You can possibly report me to an admin and they can decide regarding my tone. Im simply stating what your saying is nonsense maybe its offensive to you but doesn't make what your saying any less silly or more true in terms of any real race series regulations.

 

Faulty brake is just Mercedes PR from Toto and Niki. I don't doubt it's true to some extend but that's not the reason for the crash. The reason is they hate each other and it's a lot at stake so they are as aggressive as they can be.

@Cip: Can you show please some cool YT F1 examples where drivers defend by pushing after the apex?

 

The best thing I can do is ignore you on the forums.
Sorry meant to quote martcerv.

 

Thats fine but if you write such nonsense dont let it offend you too much if others dont agree with it, if you honestly believe what you wrote then best to stay out of MP servers and maybe out of open discussions if you get so offended by someone simply questioning what you write. It clearly is just your method and sorry to say how wrong it is in terms of any actual racing regulations ever written. If you didnt make up these then please post a race series where such silly rules are used, maybe better off just ignore the question and stick to what your doing. It probably makes you feel better when you crash into others knowing your not at fault, the best part is your definition of the racing line and how "at some point" if your inside this then becomes the racing line. The person outside who was on the racing line also under your definition and under your rules is able to drive the other guy inside off the track but then he claims the racing line so your rules mean they both have the racing line, whoever is on the racing line can now do as they please no matter where others are and drive them off the road. Does that really not sound silly to you?

Under your rules why was Nico penalized here as he had the racing line or did Lewis have the racing line, did they both have it and at what point does it change from who can drive who off the track?

 

Sadly I have to agree with earlier sentiments, that track is awful.

And the hairpin, turn 2, not only brought the worst out of Rosberg but also 90% of AC online players too. It's like playing TOCA 2 all over again.

I've had to stop playing AC online until the ridiculous obsession with shunting red cars at that corner subsides.

 

I actually think Nico has copped some undue criticism. Having said that, he is as fault, but let me explain:

In Austria he went in too hot and overcooked it. But to suggest he purposefully ran Shamilton off the road is a bit much. Basically if he had have turned he would have lost further traction and gone into Hamilton even harder.

In Germany Max moved under brakes *again* which meant Rosberg had to change his braking line which no doubt meant he ran a few metres longer - enough to give a cars width to the edge of the track. However for some reason the stewards seem to be impervious to Max Verstappen's indescretions at the moment.

 

Rosberg missed the apex by a mile and squeezed Hamilton, who was already passing, off the track. I say Rosberg's fault.

 

How on earth you know his car was not on the limit of grip? Because his tyres wasn't leave a smoke trail?
These guys are professional F1 drivers. Most times they know and feel exactly how much they can brake before tyres lock up and they try to avoid that because after that car isn't anymore their control. So, he try to keep his steering wheel straight as long as there is enough grip and then he can start turning. If you try to brake hard and turn at the same time its almost sure the tyres lock up.

 

Two very competitive racers .And having them in the same team probably doesn't help lol. but imo nico was at fault as you can tell he doesn't want to give an inch let alone the lead in any situation to hamilton. And these lads have battled with each other for quite a while now

 

Even though I actually like the track a lot you're right about that hairpin turning good drivers to crash kids. There was one quite controlled and medium fast driver in a Nismo GT3 as I drove the Ferrari GT3. I am like 2 car lengths ahead and go to the left. Other guy thinks it's an invitation for a braking duel...which is fine. But he brakes too late and if I hadn't been there he would have shot straight through the turn. He hits me, I spin and he goes off...
Afterwards I complained and was told that "a good driver would have seen that coming".

So it was Hamilton's fault according to this guy ;-)

 

T2 @ Red Bull Ring is a nasty corner. You have to really slow down a lot to make that turn, which is why so many mistakes are made. It is tighter than you think, and also slightly off camber. I guess people are just trying to take the corner too fast (and that includes me). I have worked out T1 now, and I am getting close to working out the final corner, but T2 is a b*tch!

 

And then comes turn 3....

 

Completely agree on Verstappen's moves with you. But in both of Roseberg's cases, my impression is that... well,... he could turn maybe two meters early. At least start to turn? He seems to be trying to be tough with the opponent (Hamilton first, Verstappen then), but---perhaps because he is normally a nice bloke---he does it in a clumsy way and gets penalized. Verstappen instead is way overaggressive in defense (also in the Hockenheim case) but manages to do it in a way that it is never too clumsy, never too obvious. NOTICE: I am not admiring him. I dislike this attitude, but I have to admit it works.

 

Running people off the track at any point is illegal. There is no stipulation about it being ok to do this on an exit of a corner, but not earlier.

Your condescension is unjustified here man.

Nope. Just because drivers have been getting away with it doesn't mean it isn't illegal.

Find me the sporting regulation where it says running drivers off-track on the exit is legal/not illegal.

 

Austria was Rosberg's lowest ebb. Ever - certainly from what I've seen of him in racing. Spa, Barcelona, wherever else, are nothing compared to Austria. He could have turned, he didn't.

It was the culmination of lots of factors - a perception of being bullied by Hamilton, the erosion of a healthy championship lead, whatever. It was understandable, it was human, but it was wrong.

However I don't go with all this 'Rosberg is rubbish' nonesense. Rosberg is very fast and doesn't get beaten / outpaced every time out by Hamilton, although Hamilton is one of the less consistent drivers.

Rosberg had the beating of Michael Schumacher when they were together. I'm sure Schumacher was past his prime, and he didn't have the team and entire sport built around him like he managed at Ferrari and Benetton, but Rosberg still comfortably had him.

If Hamilton had stayed at McLaren and Mercedes had, say, Massa, Raikkonen, Button, or anyone else from a long list as his team mate, he'd probably be heading for his fourth world championship this year, and the world would have him up there with Vettel.

It's so subjective.

 

Quite the opposite.

You dont get to be considered a top driver if you're inconsistent.

It's the fact that he's a top driver that when he does make mistakes or lacks pace - it's more noteworthy. Most drivers have off days far more frequently. Which is why they aren't top drivers. Most guys can perform at a top level on a great day - only the best can do it regularly.

Rosberg's only ever really challenged Lewis in the championship through better luck. The amount of times he beats Lewis on outright pace on a Sunday isn't very big. The only noticeable streak he ever had was after Lewis already sewed up the championship last year. Lewis has streaks on Rosberg all the time, though.

 

All down to how 'running off the road' is interpreted I guess.

I remember, going right back to the Montoya / M Schumacher days - at Canada maybe - Montoya getting on the outside of Schumacher on the exit of a corner and being robustly run off the track.

The argument is that in this case, Schumacher has control of the racing line. The racing line is not a straight line down the middle of the track. It runs from the apex of a corner, the inside, to the edge of the track, the outside, at corner exit.

So if, as Montoya did, a driver puts themselves on the outside of another car that is exiting the corner on the racing line, they can expect to run out of road pretty rapidly.

It happened between Hamilton and Rosberg at Texas too. And countless other times I'm sure, that I can't remember.

 

While I do not personally subscribe to the overly aggressive racing methodology Kakusso defines in his two rules..... I do have to say that many Champion drivers used exactly this approach in Formula 1 over the years. I think we see it in many series but Formula One is probably the worst offender. This level of aggression started once cars became safe enough to survive a crash.

Many people praise Senna and his aggressive driving style which really isn't much different from what Kakusso was describing to us. Fully commit for the turn, aggressively take the racing line and dare other drivers to the point where if they challenge you there will be an accident. Of course Senna was brilliantly fast but he was also even more aggressive than those two rules in many situations. And he wasn't the only champion or even typical F1 driver to act that way on track. I bring this up to say that if you look for the unwritten rules in racing , as perhaps Kakusso has over the years, you will find that these two rules are followed by some and quite a few of these drivers are adored by many.


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There is an art to positioning your car into a position the other person needs to concede some racing room to you, this is quite different to blatantly driving people off the road as in blindly driving the racing line with no care for other cars around you. No this is not what Senna or any other champion did though he was more aggressive then some, how often did he actually make contact and actually force people off the track? sure there were some incidents by him or to him and championships were decided by quite a few incidents to the point of blatant cheating. This has also happened with quite a few other well known drivers but I cant say I have seen any use the Kakusso rule book, especially in any modern racing that simply wouldnt keep you in many series or race teams. The amount of race laps done in f1 and the amount of actual people blatantly with zero care driving others off the road on purpose is very small even for the most aggressive drivers.

Generally people that dont have much race craft/awareness in sims at all tend use the "Senna" defence as an excuse, but they are then claiming to be in some way close to his level of skill and car control which is a fair stretch for pretty much anyone I think. When in fact they simply made stupid moves they were never likely to pull off and do this 2 or 3 times every lap not 2 or 3 times in an entire racing career which is just a little bit different I would say.

 

MartCerv....

Of course you don't see this too often in the current formula 1 because there is so little passing in F1 these days lol.

As far as Senna is concerned I am not espousing that aggressive driving is ok because he did it. That is not even close to what I said. I watched Senna for more than half of his F1 career and I always admired his courage and outright speed. I was younger then and I am not sure how I felt about his aggression at the time as it was so many years ago. But I can tell you now, in retrospect, that I certainly feel he was too aggressive in many situations. Yes there are the couple high-profile well-known incidents where he was completely over-the-top. Only Jackie Stewart in that time really had the balls to call Senna out on dangerous poor sportsmanship behaviour. To this day many people defend what he did that day on the track which I find pretty ridiculous.

But to assert that this type of behavior has not been seen fairly often in Formula 1 I find an ill-informed claim. Since the Advent of safer cars, aggressively taking the line and forcing others to either slow down , leave the track or crash has been a staple for a number of high-profile drivers. Of course they weren't always driving like this because many other drivers realized that people like Senna and Schumacher would drive to the point of crashing rather than giving up the line. Overtime this shaped other drivers Behavior around the more aggressive drivers and thus they would back off to avoid an accident or incident. Often times the champion drivers would act outraged when a lesser driver use the same behavior on them.
See this Top Gear Senna tribute--- really excellent for anyone who has never seen it-- for Martin Brundle's description of Senna's aggressive driving style and you will see that it wasn't just the high profile crashes we are talking about. Specifically at about the 5:50 minute mark. And Brundle is a true admirer of Senna, by the way.

Of course it isn't like this is happening every lap of every race by any means. It isn't the typical behavior of every driver in F1. But it has been a consistently observed Behavior particularly by certain F1 Champions over the years. Of course that doesn't make it right.

I would also assert that Hamilton favors this tactic when he deems it appropriate. It is no coincidence that Hamilton's hero is Ayrton Senna. And although I think rosberg carried it a bit too far I also believe he is mimicking his teammates behavior to try to compete with him on the track.

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