Let's discuss iRacing - attempt #2

Tried it 1.5 years back... Jumped into the miata, drove few laps and never touched it again.

Sorry but when you own a miata, or at least have ever driven a rear wheel drive car, then you can't take iRacing serious...

 

The mx5 and solstice run on free tracks every hour / half hour with the rookie races. Are they slow enough for you?

I'm no fan boy, I have both and enjoy both, I'm really looking forward to the porsche expansions in AC too, but when I saw somebody calling out iracing I was curious to see what the fuss was about.

 

What does Imola have to do with the FFB? Oh come on MH, who here that spent time during Pcars development would argue that Pcars actually got better near release - pad users maybe? There are things that Pcars does through telemetry that few other titles can but, you'd have to use SC4 with an AF to get the same results. I've never been able to replicate the same FFB using the game FFB with any other wheel, including the OSW although - my testing with it and Pcars has been limited. Have I changed my opinion about Pcars handling since the EA period? Yes. The FFB is still capable when using the AF with SC4.

If you are going to try torquing head-bolts using pliers, it's not going to be pretty. I stand by my stance on iRacing; from my experience, the FFB is very good; YMMV depending on the wheel used. rF2 has superb FFB but, at this point - I prefer AMS and AC with the OSW. When I tested iRacing using SC4 FFB, it opened up a whole new aspect to FFB that I didn't even realize was possible earlier. Since then, I've learned to get similar effects in other titles but, it demonstrated what iRacing has under the hood but, make no mistake; it requires better tools to get the best results.

You are clearly missing more than just the Apex. Another reason iRacing gets great reviews by DD-wheel users is it's 1:1 FFB torque feature. If you are attempting to compare FFB using a DFGT / T300 to Direct-drive, fail. Different wheels give different FFB and through FFB, how we judge game-physics can be altered significantly. The broader the Dynamic range of the wheel, the more apparent the differences become.

FFB is subjective, so are physics to some degree; yes, the "numbers" guys can point to calculations and formulas for proof. Personally, if I get the level of immersion and intense feelings that make the experience believable and thrilling, I find that a satisfying Sim-experience that can be had in any of the good or great racing titles, past or present.

 

To the OP; the title should read like this:
iracing vs AC - its not even debatable . . . here


On more neutral ground, opinions may differ. I'm not suggesting iRacing is better than any other title as a whole although, it does certain things better but, that applies to most titles. Any comparison between FFB and physics between titles can be unfair when judging those things based on back to back short-term sessions. If one spends a couple of weeks getting acclimated to the FFB and physics of a single title, we tend to adapt to that system far better than some may realize.

 

i am tempted. it probably does the oval stuff quite well - i tried to get into oval racing with the nascar 2003 game aaaages ago + one of the first sim games i played was the indycar racing game by Papyrus (which was awesome). But the novelty wears off and there's only so much driving around in literal circles i can do. might give it a go in a year's time.....

 

would just like to remind everyone that............i am using a DD wheel (small mige)......its in my video in the original post. I would like to clarify what i reiterated in my 2nd post in this thread - the original post is frankly just a rant i wrote at 3am because after having spent all day in iracing i just could not believe how bad it truly is. I did my best to give it a chance - and hell, i'm still going to play it just so i can finally play the F1 car in a proper race.
FFB is subjective - agreed to an extent - BUT there are certain objective things that Must be translated to the user. You cannot deny this by being dismissive and going 'oh its all subjective'.
You can categorically say that AC's ffb has more layers/depth to it, as i mention in my video review. In that review i try my hardest to convey in words exactly what i'm feeling, which is admiteddly difficult. Another user on this thread has put it very well 'random jerking' of the wheel - which i'll demonstrate in my next video. There are certain things which must be given to the user's hands; some feel for levels of front end grip. Some feel for weight transfer. Some feel for the rear getting light and how quickly the wheel applies counter steer force. Some conveyance of when the front tyres have gone over kerbs/bumps. These are not subjective things but objective feedbacks that need to be transmitted (objective because these are things you do feel in real life, and they coiincidentally help you control the race car)

i intend to keep this thread as a catalogue of my iracing experience - a video diary or something, so hopefully people find it useful.

as for the physics - well, it boils down to this. Do you believe cars have imperceptible levels of slip angle before overcoming the tyre completely and sliding (front or rear). If the answer is yes, than this is what iracing simulates. Maybe it's FFB is to blame, and the fact that you cannot feel those things.
The FFB in iracing feels like varying degrees of 'clipping texture feel'. That's exactly how it feels to me through my OSW. I go into this in detail in my video so do take some time to watch it.

If however you think that the physics of these cars have wider ranges of slip angles, to a smaller or larger extent depending on the car - and I believe it does having watched 100's of hours of footage throughout my life + done numerous track days sliding road + race cars about with ease - than AC is categorically the better sim. And to me, this wider range is what makes driving in real life so enjoyable - and therefore what makes AC just so. I have fun driving any car in AC just even hotlapping. In iracing it's nothing but a chore - i'm deriving 0 enjoyment from the driving aspect alone. But i'm putting myself through the torture to get to the F1 race.....

 

This is not the first review like this I have read. It is true that one should not make a decision on one review, however the review does seem objective. I honestly think that iracing is like bose in that they charge a premium price for a average product. They have a large fan boy following and it seems that if anyone says anything derogatory about it, they just get dismissed as being ignorant to what a racing sim should be about. You would think that the sim community would be happy about the diversity in sim racing, but they attack opinions/reviews if they don't align with theirs.

 

The most common fans of the annoying kind are from AC. Definitly. On several different sides it barely possible to talk about the negative aspects without being "corrected".

 

Good point although, I wouldn't say iRacing is average at all; it has some things that AC doesn't have - even in terms of the physics: Dynamic Track feature, drive-train elasticity - just as examples. While some things may seem like non-issues, some details can make a Virtual Race Car much more believable; iRacing, rF2 and AMS do that a bit better than AC because of those details IMO. Because of the cost and rating-feature of iRacing, it does tend to draw more mature and serious users with a good deal of expendable income. The amount of knowledge and experience among forum members is remarkable and very useful for those wanting to build and tune hardware. Yes, it can be a bit like an exclusive Country Club at times but then, it's fun to dis the Big-Shot's sometimes and it provides plenty of sharp objects to throw at them.

 

The driving physics, and FFB are pure **** compared to AC. The only reason for me why it became so popular is the online system which is completely awesome TBH. Every other "sim" aspect is done better by AC, maybe with the exception of flag rules, warnings, and the spotter thing. But, really, whenever i go back to iRacing after having raced AC exclusively for a while, i'm stunned by how horrible the FFB is, which gives you no FEEDBACK at all, and how weird the tire physics are, when you get sent in a non-recoverable spin at very low speed, where, in AC, you simply have to counter-steer, et voila, you got the car again. I really have no idea how so many real world drivers can prefer the physics or iRacing to those of AC, or even other sims like RBR, or rFactor. They're all superior IMO. And as long as they don't SIGNIFICANTLY change something about the physics, i won't set a foot in the iRacing service anymore. Simply because, for me, the physics are the most important part of a sim, and AC does that better than any other sim. Never drove anything comparable in how it makes me feel as if i was sitting in a real race car, which behaves like it should.

That's from someone who spent 300+ races in the official iRacing service btw, and enjoyed quite a lot of them. But, i always had issues with the driving physics, and the FFB, hence i used to race in the Skip Barber series, which is an easy to drive car with very small power. The F1 for example was almost undriveable for me, and other, more powered cars felt weird too. And the Skip Barber feels as if it was on semi slicks or so too, not on the typical road tires it should have. As i said, there's something very wrong with the tire physics in that "game" (sorry). Even many iRacing guys admit that, hence, in a poll, most voted for "Good, with issues" when asked about the tire physics, which was the 3rd, and 2nd last option, the last was something like "Not good at all", and the other options were "Fantastic, no issues", and "Very good with only small issues" or something. So, it's definitely known, even among its community, that it's not "top of the line" in regards of physics. Rather bottom of the line for me.

 

The litmus test for me is coming home from driving on a real circuit and jumping on a sim. If that sim syncs perfectly with your muscle memory and your brain doesn't get confused by strange ffb or physics, then it's a good sim. Assetto Corsa is like this. I drive better in AC after a day at the real track. iRacing just feels fake. And since they have a laser scanned Laguna Seca and Sonoma, believe me I have tested this many times and really wish iRacing was better.

And my friend is a Pro Driver and drove for Bimmerworld last year in the Continental Sports Car Challenge. Since he was a rookie and hasn't driven most of the tracks across the US, his team had him spend a lot of time in iRacing to learn upcoming tracks they were going to race at. Worked well for that, but he said the physics were crap. And he's driven AC and says the physics are the best he's ever experienced. He's blown away by how the cars feel at the limits.

So yes you can adapt to any sim, but that doesn't make it subjective. There is a thing called real physics and feedback that is the benchmark. It's called real life.

 

Great points - Real Life is the ultimate comparison; makes me wonder why those with RL access to tracks and cars even play Sim's.

My RL experience amounts to some shenanigans when I was gouger and some Auto-Cross, nothing at ultra high speeds in a race car. Still, even among those with RL Racing-experience and Sim experience, opinions regarding accuracy are all over the board. Heck, even Pcars has it's dedicated Pro's denouncing all others.

Some focus on pure realism, some on accurate physics by numbers, some on immersion, some on competition or maybe, a blend of things. AC definitely has a certain X-factor and I appreciate it more now than ever before due to the wheel I'm currently testing. In the end, different players play for different reasons and whatever trips your trigger is "What Feels Right".

 

And at the same time nowhere have I seen as many people who doesn't understand that it's not about you giving critics/feedback about the game but it's about how you give it.

 

Yeah, especially when you only talk about the negative aspects, constantly.

 

because it's cheaper my mate used to run in (he actually set it up) the amateur race series "VTEC Challenge" and I introduced him to AC at the start of last year, he bought AC the very next day

 

For me, one of the best FFB cars in Iracing, is the RUF c-spec, it has a lovely feel to it, that i feel oddly isnt replicated in other vehicles. Maybe its having that motor at the back? I am unsure, I certainly enjoy driving it though.

 

Oh totally. I get the appeal for iRacing and I don't think anything bad of people who are passionate about that sim. If you are hugely into racing competition, it's really hard to beat it. And the amount of laser scanned tracks they have is extremely impressive.

Same goes for PCars. Personally I absolutely despise that sim, but I understand the appeal for it and it brings things to the table that a lot of sim racers like.

But going back your first paragraph, I got into sims because I wanted to get better on track and it's just all too expensive and time consuming. Here's my usual scenario:

1. Sign up for a track day and pay $150-300 depending on track and season. This is usually a month in advanced. I typically do anywhere from 12-15 track days a year.
2. A few weeks before the track day I make sure I have plenty of tire and brakes for the event. New tires run $600-800 (actually very cheap for my car) and usually last about 5-6 track days. Front brake pads probably last about the same and run anywhere from $200-300. Front rotors have a similar lifespan on my car which is another $100 for cheap blanks or $300-400 if I upgrade my 2 piece discs.
3. A few days before the track day I'll spend 1-2 days making sure my suspension bolts are tight, nothing leaking on the car, and change whatever fluids might be necessary.
4. Pack all my gear the evening before (which takes some time fitting a ton of crap into a tiny car optimally), wake up at 4-5 in the morning depending on which track I'm going and drive from 1-2.5 hours to get to the track by 7am.

So yea, time consuming, costly, and I have a wife and 2 young kids (and a third on the way!) so it's getting harder to go often these days. Asetto Corsa allows me to fill in the gaps with TONS of seat time and I get to keep improving my car control and figuring out faster ways around certain types of corners between real events. Believe me, I'd go to the track every weekend if it was possible. I have lots of friends who go extremely often. But the funny thing is, I'm still faster than most of them (and definitely have better car control) because of all the seat time I fill in with simulators. And even though I spend more money than most on sim hardware, it's nowhere near as expensive as taking a real car to the track regularly. VR has really bridged the gap between them for me though. I think with 3dof motion, I'd be almost as happy driving in the sim as I would driving in real life.

 

I have a question for anyone who has a current iRacing account. One of the things that really annoyed me the last time I tried it (nearly 3 years ago) was the fact I had to recalibrate my pedals literally every time I logged in. And that included having to short calibrate my clutch (a very fiddly and annoying process).

Is it still the same or have they fixed it?

Thanks.

 

well folks LOLOLOL.
I just drove the Audi R8 GT car in my first race.
Lo and behold..................the FFB is acceptable. It vibrates when i load up the front under braking - not sure if it's simulating ABS or wheels locking.
The car ALLOWS FOR SLIP! I can chuck it into the final chicane (GT version) at nurburgring, and balance and control it on the limit.
Granted i think the setup i was using had aids on, some ABS, some TC, but even so - the underlying physics allowed me to do that. HILARIOUS.

And i just had a thoroughly enjoyable race, 40 minutes + pitstop required, as they limit the fuel to 40% of full tank.

Thank GOD for that - at least i can drive towards the F1 car and not feel like i'm wasting my life doing it - First race i've ever had in iracing where the car has allowed me to push the edges and balance it.

i look forward to doing a comparison video against the same car in AC.

 

I never had that problem with my wheels (Logitech Driving Force GT and Logitech G27).