Simulation or game?

Good thing these GPL purists are a very small minority.

 

Tbh less grip is more realistic is bull**** to me. If I wanna lose grip everytime I look at my gas pedal, I'll go drive on snow and ice at the supermarket parking lot.

 

Hi! For me nKPro was hardcore as you could ask for, but business wise, i'm not sure if it was a success? AC should implement everything for Hardcore and Arcade mod. Doing so you get both world. And give access to the Admin to all the settings and conditions for a race. There's rules dictate by the Admin and you race by it, "that's it that's all" Personally, i dont use my wheel to play Skyrim, so why would i use a gamepad for driving! Oh yes i'm on the Hardcore side .

Thanks

 

Or play iracing

 

Didn't want to say it out loud, but yes

 

Is Game Stock Car too slippery?...or don't you guys own it?

 

That's the thing though, when Assetto Corsa comes out claiming to be the most realistic simulation, you expect the physics to be ATLEAST equal to their previous title, if not better than it. Add all the aids and "arcade" elements as options for other people who want that stuff, that's cool, if the option is there to disable it then of course why not have the options (not to mention the aids that certain real cars have, AC does this really cool by the way ) but with regards to pure handling dynamics how do you go from Netkar Pro to AC? It's such a huge step down in technical fidelity of the way the cars are handled and driven going from NK Pro (and other top well known sims) to Assetto Corsa. It just blows my mind.



Look at how much dancing with the tyre slip he does, look at how much he can sometimes make the car look planted on entry and mid-corner, but other times he needs to not only hesitate on applying steering lock at turn-in, but even fully correct the car on turn-in to apex, as just the slightly wrong combination of steering/brake/throttle is making the car rotate, or even want to spin on the entry to apex phase. This is the "unsafe/icy" apparently un-realistic to some people, highly dynamic and sensitive physics that you are seeing in real life, and we DO NOT experience this much, if at all, in AC because the physics have taken a turn for this safe, non-frustrating and "familiar to your average car driver" feel, rather than the hardcore sensitivity to rear/front slip that you see in the video and that we get in just about any other sim (regardless of which one you are a fan of), BUT NOT (or not even close to nearly enough) in AC. Look at how the rear almost comes out on the chicane direction change because he wasn't "perfect enough" with his combination of steering/throttle/inputs relative to what the car/tyres were doing at that exact precise moment in time. I don't understand how peple just ignore all this because they like ease and familiar feeling of AC.

So much complex dynamics can be see here in this video, and these are onboard videos where you hardly feel or see anything the driver feels, all we see are the bigger things that are visually noticeable in these videos, and yet even then we can still see so much complexity at work. It's so far from Assetto Corsa's almost bland, straightforward, "in-between console sims and hardcore PC sims" driving model, and it's SO REPRESENTATIVE of how technical and complex the driving fidelity and modelling are in most other top end sims (even though they all have their flaws, at least they all represent this overall general area of technical physics fidelity and how you control and drive the car hard, unlike AC).

Driving at 8, 9 or 10/10ths opens up at a whole new world of physics that can make the car feel and act VERY slidey, uneasy, on the limit, nervous, sensitive to your inputs, etc. BUT, through enough feel, technique, skill, etc. you can, for the most part, stay in control of this without slowing down if you're good enough. The driving dynamics aren't all "giddy" and basic like when you drive a car at 6 or 7/10ths, a little slide and correction here, another there. That is completely wrong. When driving hard you are CONSTANTLY managing the cars grip and slide angles from front to rear, where small differences in timing and technique of brake/throttle/steering can mean the difference between understeer, oversteer, slow oversteer, snappy oversteer, looking like you are glued, etc. This is all represented to a very high level in most other high-end well known PC sims, including Kunos' previous title Netkar Pro, yet this entire area of physics and handling (which is the most important area in a racecar simulation, and in real life when driving on the slip angles, near limits) is COMPLETELY "smudged/phased out" of AC's driving model.

AC gives a very good impression and "experience" of what it's like to drive a car around and give it some "stick" here and there, that's why many who can't comprehend what I'm trying to explain feel it's the best, because of this familiar, comfortable feel it offers it's user, HOWEVER it keeps it's same "6 or 7/10ths" driving dynamics even when you are pushing the car like mad at 8, 9 or 10/10ths, flying into corners, applying horrible brake technique with regards to the weight transfer and how you steer the car in the turn, using the slips to keep the car micro-drifting all along, etc. etc. It just doesn't have the fidelity, the "hardcoreness" to do any of that, in my opinion, based on videos, my real life experiences, etc. It does a good job of giving the player the overall experience of that car, in a friendly and familiar to most feeling way, but it's driving dynamics for anyone wanting to use the game/sim as a tool, not just for fun but for people who are really serious about simulations and the pure act of recreating vehicle dynamics and how we as humans control these vehicle dynamics with our control inputs (steering/throttle/brake) is just much, MUCH too lacking and "basic" with regards to that entire area of handling/vehicle dynamics compared to other sims, let alone that real life video.

Now, videos show much less "on the limit nervousness, twitchiness, slippy slidey etc." than the driver is actually having to deal with/feeling (whether it's front or rear end, or all 4 tyres slip), yet even in that video I think my point comes across pretty clearly. It really compares well to other sims' general driving dynamics and sensitivity to car control needed by the user, and shows how AC seems to have gone for this "make it feel good to not frustrate the player, and be relate-able to your average track day fun experience" physics, rather than highly dynamic and fidelic vehicle dynamics/handling behavior.

It's right there, you can just see it going on if you pay attention to the tiny corrections on entrance to apex (and some after too), and the moments of hesitation on the increase of steering angle (due to the rear-end starting to feel like it's going to start coming around because of the way the steering and brakes where used in combination with how the weight was transferred and then dealt with before the car became settled in and took a "stance"). It's right there.

 

May I suggest you read this thread; https://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?threads/lotus-2-eleven-assetto-corsa-vs-real-life.2652/
As far as I can see, the car handles in game very similar as in your video. In game, the tail does come out when weight is transferred to the front tyres, and go too fast into a corner and there is plenty of understeer too.
You don't know what setup he is using or tyre pressure, fuel etc, and it does look quite cold weather wise. It is unfair to compare a video to AC when you do not know the variables.

 

The fact is the majority of drivers in AC don't subscribe to Spinelli's 'harder to drive must be more realistic' philosophy. Netkar wasn't any harder to drive than AC IMO, and was loved for its realistic driving experience. Also from what I've driven Piboso's Kart racing pro and the Brazilian Formula Truck seem to have the balance dialed-in just right too.

That exact philosophy has lead other sims into a black hole where some sims have become far too set-up dependent and reward alien obsessives and punish new and casual drivers. In real life I can push hard and get feedback from a poor or standard set-up and balance the car or bike on or near the limit despite it, I'll just go quicker when I get the set-up right. In some other sims the cars are practically undrivable even at 70% unless you spend time with set-up. In fact the reason I crash in those sims is because there is no real steering feedback. To me that's just unrealistic, AC matches my interpretation of what's realistic, particularly when you alter the diff settings and switch off TC and ABS. How can you say a sim that has gone to the trouble to simulate two or more different types of tires, five levels of TC and three or more levels of ABS to be unrealistic when it's all based on real telemetry based on laser scanned tracks and only in a beta stage of development? Logic would say that's just plain wrong.

So please Spinelli, wait until the sim is finished and leave the criticisms until then. If you feel the need to vent I'm sure there are many on the RF2 and iracing forums that will feel your pain and sympathize.

 

Im not venting i just love analysing and explaining all this stuff in detail

Also, I don't like cars that are hard to drive if it's hard in an unrealistic way. I have raced/lapped F1600s, F2000s, and had a 2 day open cockpit prototype test. I have done over 1000 laps in F2000s (literally), I worked at a racing school almost everyday for around a year. I even did a bit of on track instructing to some very fast up and coming karters. So I don't know it all, and my experience is a joke compared to an actual professional racecar driver of high caliber, but it's still more experience than probably 90% of other people out there and I believe it should atleast count for atleast something. Not everyone has to agree with me either

 

@ Spinelli, first thank you for sharing your point of view.
It seems to me you are missing a point when you write : rather than the hardcore sensitivity to rear/front slip that you see in the video and that we get in just about any other sim.
We love AC because it feels right to us, and yes we also do track, etc...., so we know what to expect, and it is not there in most other SIM. The very good news is we have a choice.
We know understand you prefer other SIMs than AC, and why, again thank you for sharing.

 

Netkar and GSC aren't hard to drive though champ, but they both have a tyre model that will break the rear if going beyond the limit, however, it's a progressive break in traction and is controllable unless you really over do it.

 

Sounds like AC to me...

 

For me AC is the most realistic I've seen, I can really feel the grip the car have, and it's very true what they say about easy to drive but hard to drive fast...

Race cars specialy with slicks have LOTS of grip, they are glued to the ground, that's why you need to find the limit of that.. and of course I don't want to talk about car's with wings then the grip goes even more!

Very nice feel AC, keep going...

 

Came across this video on YouTube, Jeremy Clarkson sums up Assetto Corsa for me.

 

Hmm. Forza is a bit like that.....

 

Yes, but this wasn't really because of their driving skill level, but rather, their fear to reach the limits of the cars. Hammond drove a 2005 Renault R25 and was too scared to go as fast as he needed to, to get the proper downforce the car needed to handle well. Jeremy was also physically challenged (let's be honest he's not in great shape) by the Lotus Exos T125. In a sim, you don't usually get the intense sensation of, "Oh my god I'm gonna die!", or "I can't handle the Gs!"... (Unless you have a VERY powerful motion rig ) So it becomes easier for you to reach the limits of the car.

 

Hi all

Some good points posted, my opinion might not be to popular,
I'm not to interested in what a real car will do, although I like that a good sim car is based on the real version as close as possible, when I'm driving a sim car -it is not real , I will not die I will not feel high G's etc so I want the sim car to be as immersive as possible,

I think kunos have done a fantastic job with the release of AC but I think just around -15% less grip across the range of cars would be brilliant! this will really keep me on my toes and keep my mind occupied whilst driving in AC

I'm not saying more slip is harder (it's not , once you tune in and get use to any sim car you know the limits etc) or the harder the better blah blah blah, I'm just saying I like to be more engaged / more immersed,
We lose all the real dangers / G forces etc of the real world so a sim has to be made so it occupies us.

I can get my lap times up very quickly and be pushing to the edge within a short time in AC (even on a track I don't know to well .....I wouldn't do this in a real car! ) after about 6 laps my mind starts to wonder ( this wouldn't happen in a real car due to danger etc) & for this reason I'm not really using AC that much, it's very rewarding learning and getting good with a sim car but there has to be some challenge in doing this.

The most slippery car in sim racing ( spec racer in iracing ???? ) dosnt feel difficult at all after some practice, in fact it becomes very rewarding & immersive, not that I'm saying AC cars should be the slippery cars in sim racing or anything like that.

Anyway, AC is a great product, but a few small changes to grip levels would make it totally fantastic IMO


EDIT: bear in mind people can turn on aids if they want a quick uncomplicated blast around the track, at the moment with aids off it's like there are aids on -if I'm explaining it correctly

 

yeah hhhmmm thinking race room handling here in AC?

I wont lie when i first booted up and drove it i was expecting it to be harder. i felt more race room handling than NKpro.

 

Msport dan

Hiya I don't have race room, I only have iracing, rf2 , AC. ( in fact that's everything on my hard drive! )

I read people comments saying that "so you think it has to be harder to be a sim blah blah"
But I don't think lesser grip is harder at all, it just means that we'd be governed by the boundaries of limits at more points around the track -thus it would be more engaging -just as a real world race car if for no other reason the fear of death (lol), or just bumping/damaging the car.

Once a person tunes into a sim car & has had some practice it's really no harder at all yet much much much more rewarding

...again aids are there for people that don't like this, we are all different etc